Can too much muscle memory be a bad thing?

[Guest peacexxl]

I have heard a lot of people talk about how you should always carry the same style gun, in the same location, in the same position, in the same type of holster as much as possible. Is this really the best way to go? I have two EDC guns that I rotate: a 4" XD-40 and a Taurus PT1911 (.45). I also switch between IWB and OWB alot and I occassionally adjust my position of carry somewhere between 2:30 and 4:30.

I know people say that you should develope a habit so you can instinctively go to the gun and know how to operate it when you need it. I practice a lot of draw and dry fire at home in all the ways I carry. The difference is that If something happens, I want to be fast but I don't think I want to act strictly on instinct. I want to be fully conscious of every single move I make, even if I am doing it really quickly.

I have seen posts and read stories elsewhere of people who get into a situation and "before I knew it, I had drawn and flipped the saftey off and was ready to fire" and these people are very proud of this. Maybe its just that I need more time carrying as I have only had my HCP about 1.5 years, but I don't want to find myself in a before I knew it situation. Hand to hand, when I find myself in a situation where I have had to deal with someone physically, I knew every move I made and I intended to make each move. I believe it should be the same way, or even more so in a SD situation with a gun. If we are talking life or death, I want to be quick enough to react the situation in time, but not so fast that I don't know I am reacting, because that seems a little irresponsible to me.

What do you guys think?

Edited December 21, 2010 by peacexxl

[Guest Jamie]

What I think is that you'd better be able to do what you need to without having to think about it... because when it comes down to it, you're not going to have time to think. And if you try, you're probably going to get killed.

Your brain does some silly things under stress... time seems to run in slow motion, you can't get your body to move fast enough, and your vision narrows to all but a pinpoint... And if you have to deal with that and the business of running a gun too, you're probably just gonna lock up and get shot.

There's a reason people train to do certain things. It's so they won't have to think about them when there's no time to think about them.

So no, I don't believe for one second that there's any such thing as too much muscle memory. You need to train your body to basically "go on without you" when it needs to, in order for you to survive.

The only instance where it would be bad to have "pre-programmed" reactions is when you've changed equipment or other aspects of that skill set to the point that you need to re-train due to there just being too much difference. Say, going from a Glock to a Single-action revolver. ( Not likely, but I think you see where I'm going. )

BTW, how old are you and what is your background? What sort of emergency situations have you ever been through?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jamie

[Jonnin]

Yes, no, maybe?

If you plan to get into an old school wild west cowboy gunfight, maybe its important to be able to have the fastest draw and fire possible. I tend to agree with you, however: I want to be in control when deadly force is on the line, not on autopilot --- IMHO that is how the wrong people get shot, like a kid with a toy gun.

The last thing I *ever* want to have happen is to draw and fire without realizing it. Thats going too far. As close as you can get to this is fine, so long as your brain is still connected to it, but the moment you can draw and fire without knowing you did it, thats the moment you cross a very dangerous line. Once you can do that, will you draw and shoot in a moment of anger, or if you hear a loud noise, etc? Are you going to open up on a kid with a balloon that popped, or a firecracker, or a tire blowout, etc? How would you know, your brain isnt connected to the action!

I think you have the right idea, quick and trained but a decision, not a reaction.

[Punisher84]

What I think is that you'd better be able to do what you need to without having to think about it... because when it comes down to it, you're not going to have time to think. And if you try, you're probably going to get killed.

Your brain does some silly things under stress... time seems to run in slow motion, you can't get your body to move fast enough, and your vision narrows to all but a pinpoint... And if you have to deal with that and the business of running a gun too, you're probably just gonna lock up and get shot.

There's a reason people train to do certain things. It's so they won't have to think about them when there's no time to think about them.

So no, I don't believe for one second that there's any such thing as too much muscle memory. You need to train your body to basically "go on without you" when it needs to, in order for you to survive.

BTW, how old are you and what is your background? What sort of emergency situations have you ever been through?

This. I've never fired on anyone, but I've drawn my weapon and prepared to fire. I knew I was drawing and why, but I didn't think about it. I just did it.

In addition to Jamie's posed question I'll ask this, Have you had any training beyond the HCP class? It seems to me you are implying you think you're body will make you grab your gun and shoot someone before you know what has happened. it just doesn't work that way.

[Guest JMB]

I think especially in a stressful situation you are more likely to react instinctively rather than contemplatively.

In that life threatening situation you'll have enough decisions to make, "is that a thug shooting at me or a kid with a balloon?" to worry about a manual of arms.

Can't imagine anything much worse than actually feeling threatened enough to pull a weapon (something I've not done in 40+ years), and my muscle memory reacts to Sig DA/SA, but I'm actually carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. I pull the trigger, but wait there's a safety I forgot to release. Could be a fatal lapse.

I shoot my Sigs far more than anything else, but I've shot a 1911 in competition in the afternoon after having shot a Sig in the morning. I've found myself having to adjust to the safety, and that's with having the time before the stage to think through the situation.

I enjoy shooting a variety of platforms, but always end a range trip by shooting what I carry, and spend time dry firing that action.

[Guest Jamie]

It seems to me you are implying you think you're body will make you grab your gun and shoot someone before you know what has happened. it just doesn't work that way.

About that... Let me tell you a little story:

First off, I must explain that I've always been a heavy sleeper. We're talking "vampire during the daylight hours" heavy sleeper. Once I'm out, I might as well be dead.

Now... back when I worked the night shift at the S.O., my usual habit was to come home in the morning, make a pot of coffee, drink it while playing with the dog or doing whatever else, then go to bed. My wife at the time had usually gone to work an hour or so before I came in, so there was no one there but me and the dog - who just happened to be one that never barked at anything. Ever.

Well, one morning I came in, went though the usual routine, and went to bed. It had been a particularly long night, so I was out pretty quick.

About an hour later, I woke up, sitting there in the bed with the G-22 I had laid on my nightstand firmly in hand and sighted through the bedroom doorway on the person that was standing there.

It was my mother, with the dog standing there next to her wagging his tail.

Nobody got shot. I lowered the gun, put it back on the nightstand, then asked her what the hell she was doing there unannounced. ( Major rule at my house: Let me know your coming. Drop-ins are unwelcome unless it's an emergency. )

She said she had to go out for something and decided to stop by to ask about some damn fool thing or the other, and when I didn't answer her knock at the door decided to use her key and come on in.

Needless to say, looking down the barrel of that .40 cal demonstrated to her far better than I could ever explain why it was she shouldn't do that.

Anyway, that's an example of training doing what it's supposed to do, without it doing something it's NOT supposed to do. Had it been someone other than my mother, and had I not woke up like I did, I'd have been in a world of .

The same would be true if I had just grabbed the gun, set up, and ripped a shot off without identifying my target first.

But training kept me from doing that.

Sorry, I know it's a long post for probably a little bit of nothing, but I hope what I'm trying to explain get through.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jamie

[Punisher84]

About that... Let me tell you a little story...

Can't think of a better example man. I've had the gun in my hand and ready to go several times from being woken up abruptly by things that go bump, or in one case *crash* *clang* SON OF A B****!, in the night, but I've never fired.

[Guest Jamie]

Can't imagine anything much worse than actually feeling threatened enough to pull a weapon (something I've not done in 40+ years), and my muscle memory reacts to Sig DA/SA, but I'm actually carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. I pull the trigger, but wait there's a safety I forgot to release. Could be a fatal lapse.

About that:

Do you find that simply feeling the gun in your hand sets the proper manual of arms in motion? Because I think that with enough handling of several different guns, your brain learns to sort out which one's which just from touch and still do what's appropriate for that particular gun without a person even having to look at it or know which one it is.

Or am I just odd and it's just me?

[Punisher84]

About that:

Do you find that simply feeling the gun in your hand sets the proper manual of arms in motion? Because I think that with enough handling of several different guns, your brain learns to sort out which one's which and still do what's appropriate for that particular gun without a person even having to look at it or know which one it is.

Or am I just odd and it's just me?

I'll toss this in for me and say I get where he's coming from. A guy I used to shoot with used to joke about my "phantom safety". I've always primarily carried a 1911 and trained with it so anything else I carry will NOT have a safety. Basically I've gotten used to drawing, flipping the safety, and firing. So even without a safety I still try to disengage it. Doesn't really change anything because next I'm pulling the trigger.

[Guest Jamie]

I'll toss this in for me and say I get where he's coming from. A guy I used to shoot with used to joke about my "phantom safety". I've always primarily carried a 1911 and trained with it so anything else I carry will NOT have a safety. Basically I've gotten used to drawing, flipping the safety, and firing. So even without a safety I still try to disengage it. Doesn't really change anything because next I'm pulling the trigger.

I do that too for a while, but then at some point it seems to stop. Hell, I've gone from SA to DA to DA/SA and back so many times, if it didn't work that way for me I'd probably be 20 minutes just figuring out what I'm supposed to be doing with what I happen to have picked up, I suppose...

[Punisher84]

I do that too for a while, but then at some point it seems to stop. Hell, I've gone from SA to DA to DA/SA and back so many times, if it didn't work that way for me I'd probably be 20 minutes just figuring out what I'm supposed to be doing with what I happen to have picked up, I suppose...

Hell throw it at 'em lol

[Guest Jamie]

Hell throw it at 'em lol

They'd probably just pick it up and shoot me with it...

[Guest peacexxl]

I see your points and basically it makes sense that you would just want to find a middle ground a little closer to the edge of being automatic with out being in full auto pilot mode. Personally, I am 39 and have only been shooting for a couple of years, but growing up in Chcago and Memphis, I've had plenty of chances to test my ability to walk away form a bad situation and a time or two when I was just not able to walk away, but diffused the situation by putting my hands on someone just enough for them to know that they didn't want the incident to go any further. In all cases, the time it took me to decide how to react was fractions of a second and in most cases, something that I had practiced or planned for with friends or people I trusted. I just think its the same thing that does not allow me to drink, that being a personal desire to be fully aware of my actions at all times. I can and have done plenty of really stupid things in my life time, but I have never been able to blame them on anything but my own poor judgement. In other words, I was always fully in control of my idocy, and that's how I like it.

I, like anyone else with good sense who carries a gun for the right reasons, hope I never have to shoot anyone. BUT, if I do have to fire on someone, I want to be fully accountable for my actions and know that I had no other choice. I just never want the idea of taking another persons life to become second nature, even if that person forces me to do so.

That's why I like to switch up my carry style and process just a little bit. It's not that I have to spend a lot of time thinking about what I have and how to use it. In fact, I constantly remind myself of what I have on me through out the day so that I know how to react if I need to use it. I still do a subtle elbow check to see where it sits even though I know this will give me away to the pros, but I am okay with that. I just want to stay conscious at all times.

[Guest Jamie]

You have to understand that there's a big difference in a situation where you get to choose your course of action, and one where your course is already laid out for you.

It's the one where you have no real choice that the reflexes are going to count the most, and where the training will pay for it's self.

The other thing you need to understand is that you always will have a chance to choose, up to a point, even when reflex is involved. The thing is, it will probably be more along the lines of "Oh Sh**!!!" and automatically drawing the gun, then firing or not, rather than "Oh Sh**!! I need to draw. Grab the gun. Get it on target. Okay, do I need to pull the trigger? Really? Okay, squeeze the trigger then."

In other words, there will still need to be something that tells you it's time to get the gun into service. It's not just going to magically pop out of the holster every time you're startled or unsure. Unless of course you build the entire wrong set of reflexes....

Make sense?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jamie

[Jonnin]

Exactly where I was going with it. Take Jamie's excellent example: he was not far enough gone into the reflex mode to actually shoot -- that is where you want to be. The guy who would have pulled the trigger in that situation, that is where you don't want to be. The thing here, IMO, is how you train really. If you train to draw and fire in a single motion, that would probably lead to a problem. If you train to draw, prepare(safety off or whatever as needed for your gun), and aim in a single rapid motion, that should be safe, your gun is out and aimed and the brain kicks in for a "now what" right when you need it. IMO anything you train/repeat to death will become a reflex/reaction and training extensively to pull/fire is just downright unsafe (however you may choose to do a few draw fire exercises--- note how fast a running attacker can close upon you). It should be clear the difference between a couple of exercises vs doing the same motion 50000 times until you can do it in your sleep.

As far as it goes, being aware of your gun at all times is a good thing. You do that, and you may think of yourself as a novice, but you won't drop it, you will notice if its not there (fell out of the holster or pick-pocketed or whatever horrible thing), you wont forget & grab a beer, etc. Becoming so used to carry that you forget its there isnt in your best interest IMHO -- better that the gun is a little uncomfortable (mentally or physically) so you are always at least a little bit aware of it.

[dunndw]

I have found my gun in my hand before I knew it as well. My wife and I were in the middle of house cleaning, vacuum running, etc..lots of background noise..etc. We had a friend coming over to watch football that day and we didn’t hear her knock on the front door. She heard the vacuum running so she came around to the back door and opened it. That startled the dogs who started up with their alarm barking, which startled the wife who let out a yelp, which startled me, who before I knew it had a Sig 220 snatched out of it’s holster. I saw who it was and all was well, but I never thought about the gun, it just was there...which is exactly how I want to react in that situation. I can also attest to the phantom safety sweep. No matter what gun I carry, my thumb goes for the 1911 safety

[Guest bnoland]

I have had a situation some what like Jamie had. I have an alarm on my house. I get off work at 0100. My normal routine is to come home, watch tv or something for a little while and then off to bed. About 0300 my house alarm goes off. Before I was fully aware the alarm was going off I was up on my feet, pistol on target at the bedroom door and ready to start forward to clear the house. I was finishing clearing the house before the alarm company even called. My wife answer the phone and found out it was a panic alarm.. Turns out our cat sat on my alarm remote and set off the panic button.

Training does is very important. I had a dog sprint out of someones house towards me and my partner on a call and I drew my weapon and had it in my sights in an instant. I actually thought to my self "holy crap, when did I draw?!" We are issued a Sig 229. I carry a glock off duty. I have a springfield 1911 and don't carry it because I am not comfortable enough to be confident I would remember to sweep the safety if I truly needed it.

[Warbird]

It isn't muscle memory you need to worry so much about. It is proficiency. In the heat of an urgent situation your skills will diminish to the level of which you have proficiency. In other words you might draw all of the time from one place in practice, but you carry a gun in several places. You might be proficient in one place, but few are in several places. If you carry in several places you better be. And of course you must be proficient in the entire process including the act of shooting and doing so very well. Your shooting in a situation will diminish to the level of your worst day by half. Proficiency includes the necessity to do all possible to practice to a necessary level under stress. If you really have no proficiency with any part of this, then you are going to be fumbling and you are going to in big trouble and you will likely not have the odds on your side.

And this doesn't even touch on mindset. This doesn't really broach the physical effects of adrenaline and what the ramifications will be during that period of time to you motor skills, vision, hearing etc.

The more I train and train others and train with others the more convinced I am that very few are really prepared for terrible situations to happen to them, even cops.

There is no replacement for good training and the resulting development of proficiency through practice following training. Continued training. Those who are well trained and practice is as a serious craft and responsibility fare far, far better in gun fights than those who do not. And even then there is some luck involved. So I would rather be skilled and hope for some luck than be unskilled and hope and pray for a miracle or extreme luck.

I really wish the training and tactics section of TGO was the most heavily posted section of the site.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Warbird

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Muscle memory and the decision-making process are two seperate and independent processes. Your brain is able to process data much, much faster than your body can respond. It's always one step ahead. Even when some event has triggered you to grab your firearm and begin the draw process, the brain is still working, collecting data, and making decisions. If your brain realizes, at any point in the draw, that there is no real threat, then it will send the signal to your hands to stop. The muscles don't take over the decision-making process.....unless you have some mental defect that effects that process.

Being very quick and proficient with the draw isn't going to make you an automatic, unthinking killing machine.

[Guest DanE479]

It isn't muscle memory you need to worry so much about. It is proficiency. In the heat of an urgent situation your skills will diminish to the level of which you have proficiency. In other words you might draw all of the time from one place in practice, but you carry a gun in several places. You might be proficient in one place, but few are in several places. If you carry in several places you better be. And of course you must be proficient in the entire process including the act of shooting and doing so very well. Your shooting in a situation will diminish to the level of your worst day by half. Proficiency includes the necessity to do all possible to practice to a necessary level under stress. If you really have no proficiency with any part of this, then you are going to be fumbling and you are going to in big trouble and you will likely not have the odds on your side.

And this doesn't even touch on mindset. This doesn't really broach the physical effects of adrenaline and what the ramifications will be during that period of time to you motor skills, vision, hearing etc.

The more I train and train others and train with others the more convinced I am that very few are really prepared for terrible situations to happen to them, even cops.

There is no replacement for good training and the resulting development of proficiency through practice following training. Continued training. Those who are well trained and practice is as a serious craft and responsibility fare far, far better in gun fights than those who do not. And even then there is some luck involved. So I would rather be skilled and hope for some luck than be unskilled and hope and pray for a miracle or extreme luck.

I really wish the training and tactics section of TGO was the most heavily posted section of the site.

THIS!!!!!!

Remember that it's not muscle memory. It's neural programming. Muscles don't have memory any more than bones have memory. Repeated training conditions pathways in your brain. That's what reflexes are. Pathways that are so conditioned that you react without concious thought.

The act of executing a proper draw when faced with an immediate threat should be unconcious; requiring no active thought on your part. THe active thought part comes in when the gun is out, you have the sight picture, and you make the determination to fire. The goal in a defensive situation is to emlinate as much active thought as possible so as to save the critical thinking for the critical decisions (not decisions like "After I pull my gun out of the holster, I need to join up with my off-hand and bring it to a ready position).

Rea