The end of Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[leroy]

All:______________

I think there is a lot of wisdom in Mike, Jamie, and Garfua's posts above (...as well as many others...). My take on this whole thing is that you need to "follow the money" on this one. The Demorats have made themselves a formidable power by bonding various splinter constituencies together over time. At their core, polititians are into "picking winners and loosers" to reward friends and punish enemies. That technique has not been lost on the "political class" republicans.

Times are hard now; and all the various politicos (...notice i didnt say statesmen...) worship the god of money and power. Money is, in fact, the "Mother's Milk of politics". Many of the political class (...both Demorat and Republican...) covet dollars and influence, no matter where it comes from. A good example would be Republicans in dark blue states like Kalefornia (...the "home" of the Log Cabin Republicans...).

In the end, this aint about national policy, honoring the service of "gay" military service members, percieved morality issues, nor civil rights. It's about harvesting the dollars and currying favor with another "voting bloc". This aint a "left wing" demorat conspiracy; its a cynical move by the "political class on both sides of the isle" to engender loyalty and harvest dollars. They could give a damn less about any fallout. It's the dollars and political power that counts.

Merry Christmas from the political class!!

Read this from that "ultimate demorat DA, morally bankrupt politico; the great joe (...the plagiarizer...) biden, VP of the good ole USA: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2010/Dec/24/biden_says_gay_marriage__inevitable_.html

Leroy

Edited December 24, 2010 by leroy
added biden blurb.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Are you guys seriously saying that you could choose to have sex with men? I mean that is what I am getting from the statement that homos are making a conscious decision to go after guys.

I do not have to make a choice between a man or a woman. I have no choice. I am attracted to women.

Fantastic post.

[Glenn]

All:______________

I think there is a lot of wisdom in Mike, Jamie, and Garfua's posts above (...as well as many others...). My take on this whole thing is that you need to "follow the money" on this one. The Demorats have made themselves a formidable power by bonding various splinter constituencies together over time. At their core, polititians are into "picking winners and loosers" to reward friends and punish enemies. That technique has not been lost on the "political class" republicans.

Times are hard now; and all the various politicos (...notice i didnt say statesmen...) worship the god of money and power. Money is, in fact, the "Mother's Milk of politics". Many of the political class (...both Demorat and Republican...) covet dollars and influence, no matter where it comes from. A good example would be Republicans in dark blue states like Kalefornia (...the "home" of the Log Cabin Republicans...).

In the end, this aint about national policy, honoring the service of "gay" military service members, percieved morality issues, nor civil rights. It's about harvesting the dollars and currying favor with another "voting bloc". This aint a "left wing" demorat conspiracy; its a cynical move by the "political class on both sides of the isle" to engender loyalty and harvest dollars. They could give a damn less about any fallout. It's the dollars and political power that counts.

Merry Christmas from the political class!!

Read this from that "ultimate demorat DA, morally bankrupt politico; the great joe (...the plagiarizer...) biden, VP of the good ole USA: RealClearPolitics - Politics - Dec 24, 2010 - Biden says gay marriage 'inevitable'

Leroy

THIS says it.

Glenn

[Guest Bluemax]

Dozens of minor studies have been conducted, but practically nobody has heard of them and they produced no real scientific results. There have really only been 3 major studies of this kind (Hamer, LeVay, and Bailey/Pillard). For the record, all 3 major studies were conducted by gay activists.

In all 3 cases they got huge media publicity when they published their work. But, when attempts to replicate their studies uncovered major faults in all 3 studies ranging from outright fabrication of data and unwarranted assumptions to sloppy practices (refusing to use a control group) there was no fanfare.

Since the first major study in 1993, we've all heard about the scientists studying the gay gene and that's all that "stuck" b/c that's all the press fed us. The truth is all 3 major studies were debunked, but that doesn't sell newspapers or 30-second commercial spots on the nightly news. So, the general public goes on thinking there is some real science behind the "born gay" claim.

Weren't these studies done to change to change the status of homosexuality from a life style to an actual minority race ? If this could be proven, they would be elligable for the same preferential treatment given to other "actual" minorities such as government jobs etc. I have no problem turning my head an treating Gay's as equals but desgnating them as a race...Sorry, I ain't buying it

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Are you guys seriously saying that you could choose to have sex with men? I mean that is what I am getting from the statement that homos are making a conscious decision to go after guys.

I do not have to make a choice between a man or a woman. I have no choice. I am attracted to women.

I think alot of this comes down to what meaning people are giving to choice. If by choice they mean is there a natural attraction by some people to members of the same sex then yes there probably is for some. If however by choice they are meaning the person can choose to act on those feelings the obvious answer is yes which gets us to the heart of the debate: Should they be forced to control there desires or be allowed to act upon them?

Also on the comparison to race...A person can choose to have a relationship with a person of the same sex whereas you cannot choose the color of your skin but only your behaviour.

[BigK]

Weren't these studies done to change to change the status of homosexuality from a life style to an actual minority race ? If this could be proven, they would be elligable for the same preferential treatment given to other "actual" minorities such as government jobs etc. I have no problem turning my head an treating Gay's as equals but desgnating them as a race...Sorry, I ain't buying it

That is EXACTLY what all 3 studies hoped for...not my words, theirs.

[BigK]

I Also on the comparison to race...A person can choose to have a relationship with a person of the same sex whereas you cannot choose the color of your skin but only your behaviour.

VERY well said and like others have said, this is the heart of the debate, regardless of whether they condone, tolerate, encouage, or abhor homosexuality. It is econtinually compared to race or some other protected minority status to gain political currency with the public.

The Left is already won over, they were backing the movement from day one. This is the sheep's clothing that gets the the Middle (the largest voting block) to let go of their Ideals.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Those that wish to discriminate against those different than themselves have no one to blame for protected classes BUT themselves.

If you find yourself trying to change gays, or at least requiring them to keep quiet about their sexuality, then I can promise you that you are not the "middle." The middle (the real middle) really doesn't care.

[mikegideon]

Fantastic post.

Yep

[mikegideon]

All:______________

I think there is a lot of wisdom in Mike, Jamie, and Garfua's posts above (...as well as many others...). My take on this whole thing is that you need to "follow the money" on this one. The Demorats have made themselves a formidable power by bonding various splinter constituencies together over time. At their core, polititians are into "picking winners and loosers" to reward friends and punish enemies. That technique has not been lost on the "political class" republicans.

Times are hard now; and all the various politicos (...notice i didnt say statesmen...) worship the god of money and power. Money is, in fact, the "Mother's Milk of politics". Many of the political class (...both Demorat and Republican...) covet dollars and influence, no matter where it comes from. A good example would be Republicans in dark blue states like Kalefornia (...the "home" of the Log Cabin Republicans...).

In the end, this aint about national policy, honoring the service of "gay" military service members, percieved morality issues, nor civil rights. It's about harvesting the dollars and currying favor with another "voting bloc". This aint a "left wing" demorat conspiracy; its a cynical move by the "political class on both sides of the isle" to engender loyalty and harvest dollars. They could give a damn less about any fallout. It's the dollars and political power that counts.

Merry Christmas from the political class!!

Read this from that "ultimate demorat DA, morally bankrupt politico; the great joe (...the plagiarizer...) biden, VP of the good ole USA: RealClearPolitics - Politics - Dec 24, 2010 - Biden says gay marriage 'inevitable'

Leroy

You can say this about ANYTHING that comes out of Congress. Every once in awhile, they get one right.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

The issue of gays in the military, or "gay" in general should have never been an issue.

Whoever, a gay or straight, that put this in the media in the first place, made a huge mistake.

It became political.

[mikegideon]

I think alot of this comes down to what meaning people are giving to choice. If by choice they mean is there a natural attraction by some people to members of the same sex then yes there probably is for some. If however by choice they are meaning the person can choose to act on those feelings the obvious answer is yes which gets us to the heart of the debate: Should they be forced to control there desires or be allowed to act upon them?

Also on the comparison to race...A person can choose to have a relationship with a person of the same sex whereas you cannot choose the color of your skin but only your behaviour.

They can choose to hide it, and live a miserable life. That's not a sexual preference choice, it's a survival choice. I didn't read any studies. I did my own. I have known a lot of gays over the last 30 years. Some are very good friends, and have been friends for well over 10 years. I work with them, drink with them... share real friendships with them. It AIN'T a choice.

[mikegideon]

The issue of gays in the military, or "gay" in general should have never been an issue.

Whoever, a gay or straight, that put this in the media in the first place, made a huge mistake.

It became political.

I gives us something to chew on while Kwik is planning his next insane act

[Guest Jamie]

I ain't chewin' on no gays...

Hell, it ain't even safe to nibble on the female ones.... They'd hurt a fellow. ;)

[mikegideon]

I ain't chewin' on no gays...

Hell, it ain't even safe to nibble on the female ones.... They'd hurt a fellow. ;)

Oh, I'm not either. I don't understand how "one man can look at another man's hairy ass and fall in love". I understand the girls, since I was basically born a lesbian.

[leroy]

....You can say this about ANYTHING that comes out of Congress. Every once in awhile, they get one right. ....

Give it a few years and see if it's alright. Right now, you, me, and everyone is free to think whatever they want. Wait until the "gay discrimination" police come around.

They're out there.

Leroy

[mikegideon]

Give it a few years and see if it's alright. Right now, you, me, and everyone is free to think whatever they want. Wait until the "gay discrimination" police come around.

They're out there.

Leroy

I'm not saying some won't try. Our society is pretty much FUBAR. But still, your argument doesn't justify REAL discrimination. That's what we've had up until now. It seems like we're losing sight of the fact that the military isn't a democracy. We haven't seen any significant disruption with other "minorities" in the military, and we won't see it with homos.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Oh, I'm not either. I don't understand how "one man can look at another man's hairy ass and fall in love". I understand the girls, since I was basically born a lesbian.

And I was going to say that.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not they were

born that way or made a choice. It does matter

whether one wants to love their life as a "victim" or

not. That's where the politics enters in. Not a conspiracy,

just political Barbara Streisand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mikegideon]

And I was going to say that.

Anyway, it doesn't matter whether or not they were

born that way or made a choice. It does matter

whether one wants to love their life as a "victim" or

not. That's where the politics enters in. Not a conspiracy,

just political Barbara Streisand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When somebody loses their career because of something like this, instead of how they do their job, it's discrimination plain and simple. FWIW, Barbara Streisand pisses me off.

[leroy]

.....I'm not saying some won't try. Our society is pretty much FUBAR. But still, your argument doesn't justify REAL discrimination. That's what we've had up until now. It seems like we're losing sight of the fact that the military isn't a democracy. We haven't seen any significant disruption with other "minorities" in the military, and we won't see it with homos. ....

There has never been an edict, decree, or law that successfully controlled discrimination (...or morality, or the lack thereof...); and this one will be no different. You are right in saying that the military is not a democracy; and no one will argue that with you. The military will, in fact, follow orders. Said another way, they will do exactly what they are told no matter how stupid or obtuse; they are subject to civilian authority (..no matter how heinous or foolish...).

My problem aint the military problem or even the "discriminitory problem". It's the long range problem that making the openly gay a "protected species" will bring. If "gayness" is protected; by definition, you (...presuming you are 'straight"...) are at least number two. Where's the equality in that for you? Remember, there are already federal laws on the books that talk about "hate crimes". Those laws have already been used to prosecute crimes against "gays". Interesting... aint it?. Looks to me like the "gay" community already has some "protections" in place that you and i dont have.

There are plenty of us out here that believe that "gayness" is a lifestyle choice. That belief doesnt automatically qualify me (...or anyone else, for that matter...) as a bigot or a persecuter of gays. I (....and many others, i believe...) simply dont believe in the "no-fault" view of life; and the idea that says that the individual is a "helpless" no-fault waif that is gragged around by mysterious, supernatural (...or natural ... depending on your world view....) forces that make them do the things they do. That is simply a convenient cop-out. Life is full of choices; and no amount of apologizing and making up stories about it can remove the individual's responsibility for his (...her or it's ...) actions.

In my view the DADT military thing is simply an excuse to advance an activist agenda; and that's exactly what has happened. The military simply acts as a convenient vehicle for the initial implementation of a long range agenda. My point is to look to the end game. The end game (...for the gay activist community....) is to make the openly gay a genuine protected minority. After all, that is exactly what happened with the race and gender issue. The end game (...from the politico's perspective...) is to curry the favor of and harvest the dollars from another constituency. After all, the "political class" know what is best for all us "serfs". They'll handle any fallout and pick the "winners and loosers".

Leroy

[mikegideon]

Leroy,

Protected species' are usually protected for a reason. The government needs to stay the hell out of everybody's bedroom. My industry is plumb full of homos, and always has been. We stopped discriminating against them decades ago. We have not been subject to excess "gayness", or anything like it.

I drug a couple of my guys into a disaster area several years back. There was a real shortage of hotel rooms (in fact, the window was blown out of mine). One was gay, and the other was one of these guys you have to beat the women off of. I put them in the same room... for ten days. NOTHING happened. No bitching and moaning. They just did their jobs. Of course, they were already friends, so the straight guy knew that he wasn't going to get his ass grabbed.

Homophobia is not based in reality. And then, there are those that think the country should be run by the Bible. I'm not one of those.

[BigK]

+1000 Leroy

On the lighter side, I found the perfect gift to give your favorite heterosexual soldier to protect his junk in the shower. Check this out!

Black Stallion Handgun Soap, Toys & Gifts, Brand Not Specified at Sportsman's Guide

And in case their position is overrun...

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/2-pk-grenade-soap-set.aspx?a=752723&pn=1

Edited December 24, 2010 by BigK

[mikegideon]

+1000 Leroy

Leroy is one of my favorite folks, but he's wrong on this one.

[leroy]

....Leroy is one of my favorite folks, but he's wrong on this one. ...

Thanks for the kindness Mike and Think!!. I may be wrong about this; but again, im a suspicious man when it comes to the political class and political zelots.

By the way; take the time read this: Rights activists press Obama to work for gay marriage. Interesting aint it?

Merry Christmas to all (...gay and straight, pagan and saint, believers and agnostic; you know; EVERYBODY MAN!!!...)!!

Leroy

Edited December 24, 2010 by leroy

[mikegideon]

Thanks for the kindness Mike and Think!!. I may be wrong about this; but again, im a suspicious man when it comes to the political class and political zelots.

By the way; take the time read this: Rights activists press Obama to work for gay marriage. Interesting aint it?

Merry Christmas to all!!

Leroy

Say it ain't so . Political zealots grab onto everything. Our fight is with them, not with homos that want to serve in the military for the SAME reasons other folks want to serve.