How far before you pull your weapon?

[Guest 1010011010]

I'd be careful about having your mouth open like that.

[Guest Jamie]

Makes sense to me and I'm not even inside you.

You're getting bit weird, sir...

[Links2k]

I have told some people that you may have to take a ass whomping sometimes. Every situation does not call for deadly force. Always try to be a peace maker and be willing to walk/run away. Only draw your weapon if you are planning/ready to kill. Being bad mouthed by a tough guy does not justify drawing your weapon.

We had a lady get arrested locally for drawing on a guy at a gas station the other day. I think that he was only asking her to move her car forward a little so his wife could get closer to a pump. Maybe she felt threatened but the guy had not done anything but walked toward her. She should have asked him not to come toward her while attempting to increase her reactionary gap.

Drawing that weapon when there is no real threat will get you put in jail. Also remember that because you are carrying a gun does not make you a bad ass. My advice is to develope a DEFENSIVE mindset. Only become the aggressor when it is time to nuke that bad guy.

[Guest Jamie]

HCP 101. Taught in every handgun carry class that I've ever attended.

Anything past the first, basic HCP-type class that I've ever taken, the instructor usually started out with something like "If you're here, you're supposed to already know the basics of safety and the requirements for using a gun in self-defense, so I'm not going to re-teach those..." and then moved on to whatever it was that we were there for.

Just how many times did you have to take basic courses anyway?

Please, tell me where you've attended classes that they HAVEN'T taught this simple logic.

Um... the Sheriff's department training range and later the L.E.O. training academy... Shotgun and rifle classes in particular, but also with the more advanced pistol classes.

While I'm sure you're "situationally aware" enough to keep track of that many people at one time, most of us mere mortals are not.

Oh you don't have to keep track of all of 'em... not at one time, anyway. Only the ones that look or act like they're gonna be a problem. And those usually stand out and make themselves easy to spot. And anybody that's going to be a problem by targeting you because of your job ( cop, guard, etc. ) will come to you and are therefore pretty damned easy to keep up with.

And yes, I've worked crowd control before.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Anything past the first, basic HCP-type class that I've ever taken, the instructor usually started out with something like "If you're here, you're supposed to already know the basics of safety and the requirements for using a gun in self-defense, so I'm not going to re-teach those..." and then moved on to whatever it was that we were there for.

Just how many times did you have to take basic courses anyway?

Um... the Sheriff's department training range and later the L.E.O. training academy... Shotgun and rifle classes in particular, but also with the more advanced pistol classes.

Oh you don't have to keep track of all of 'em... not at one time, anyway. Only the ones that look or act like they're gonna be a problem. And those usually stand out and make themselves easy to spot. And anybody that's going to be a problem by targeting you because of your job ( cop, guard, etc. ) will come to you and are therefore pretty damned easy to keep up with.

And yes, I've worked crowd control before.

Twice in TN (I retook it at Rangemaster because the first place I went seemed pretty fishy and gave some bad advice) and once in LA. Passed all three 100%. I also heard it mentioned at other notable training facilities in higher level classes. Ya know, there is a huge difference between a shooting class and a self defense class. I haven't heard it in many shooting classes, either.

I'd be shocked if the Sheriff or LEO didn't teach you when it was acceptable to use lethal force. It may have been presented differently, but I'm sure it was there. Then again, I've trained with a lot of LEO and most of them are seeking out additional training because they realized that the training they got at the academy sucked.

If you've never been to Mardi Gras, then you have no idea what crowd control really means. There are times that the crowd is so thick that you literally get MOVED down the street, whether you want to or not. The NOPD are experts at crowd control. Of the officers I knew, none of them would claim to be able to keep tabs of all potential bad guys in that type of crowd. That's why the work in groups with elevated spotters, helos, mounted partols, cameras, etc.

Situational awareness is relative. If it wasn't, then none of us would ever carry guns because we would always see trouble coming and avoid it, right?

[MikePapa1]

From reading this thread, all I can say is there will always be work for my ilk.

[mikegideon]

From reading this thread, all I can say is there will always be work for my ilk.

Of course. If it ever get's slow, they'll bump farting in church up to a felony (if it isn't already).

[Guest Jamie]

Twice in TN (I retook it at Rangemaster because the first place I went seemed pretty fishy and gave some bad advice) and once in LA. Passed all three 100%.

I gotta say, it sounds fishy to me to take the class in TN more than once... because the only real reason to take it at all is to get a TN carry permit... especially if you've already taken a class in another state, and, I assume, had a permit there.

If you're actually wanting to learn anything useful concerning firearms, tactics, or the legal ramifications or requirements of self-defense, an HCP class would be the last place I'd look.

I also heard it mentioned at other notable training facilities in higher level classes. Ya know, there is a huge difference between a shooting class and a self defense class. I haven't heard it in many shooting classes, either.

To me, the HCP class is really neither a shooting class nor a self-defense class... Maybe it's changed a lot in the 15 years or so since I took it, but what I got out of it was that it was mostly a sort of gun safety class. The defensive classes I've been involved with were far more tactics-related than the HCP thing made any pretenses of being.

I'd be shocked if the Sheriff or LEO didn't teach you when it was acceptable to use lethal force. It may have been presented differently, but I'm sure it was there. Then again, I've trained with a lot of LEO and most of them are seeking out additional training because they realized that the training they got at the academy sucked.

LEO firearms classes do mostly tend toward gun handling and tactics, with the legal stuff pretty much left to... you guessed it... the law instructors. There is some cross-referencing, naturally, but not as much as you might think. Then you get into the departmental classes that are entirely concerned with you not getting the department it's self sued, and making sure you have a firm grasp of departmental policy...

... and all of that gets mixed up into an interesting hodge-podge that pretty much assumes that you got the basics somewhere back earlier on. Or at least that's how it went with me.

If you've never been to Mardi Gras, then you have no idea what crowd control really means. There are times that the crowd is so thick that you literally get MOVED down the street, whether you want to or not.

Can't be much worse than working a Hank Williams Jr. concert out at the old Starwood amphitheater...

Situational awareness is relative. If it wasn't, then none of us would ever carry guns because we would always see trouble coming and avoid it, right?

No, I'd carry one anyway for those times when I saw it coming and didn't have any choice but to deal with it...

[Guest Jamie]

From reading this thread, all I can say is there will always be work for my ilk.

As long as there's more than two people on this planet one of 'em will always be a lawyer and that person will always have work.

And that's even if there are no weapons of any kind at all.

[Punisher84]

I think I figured out exactly why Guy and I hate each other in his last few posts...

Guy have you ever worked in a LE capacity of any type? I'm gonna run that from a security guard to a federal agent. You seem to have alot of "training knowledge" but very little street knowledge. Your comment about NOPD really gave me a chuckle. They know alot about crowd control because of Mardi Gras? Please. Most of them ran off during Katrina.

[Guest tnxdshooter]

I think I figured out exactly why Guy and I hate each other in his last few posts...

Guy have you ever worked in a LE capacity of any type? I'm gonna run that from a security guard to a federal agent. You seem to have alot of "training knowledge" but very little street knowledge. Your comment about NOPD really gave me a chuckle. They know alot about crowd control because of Mardi Gras? Please. Most of them ran off during Katrina.

Yeah or killed a bunch of innocents on a bridge.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I gotta say, it sounds fishy to me to take the class in TN more than once... because the only real reason to take it at all is to get a TN carry permit... especially if you've already taken a class in another state, and, I assume, had a permit there.

If you're actually wanting to learn anything useful concerning firearms, tactics, or the legal ramifications or requirements of self-defense, an HCP class would be the last place I'd look.

To me, the HCP class is really neither a shooting class nor a self-defense class... Maybe it's changed a lot in the 15 years or so since I took it, but what I got out of it was that it was mostly a sort of gun safety class. The defensive classes I've been involved with were far more tactics-related than the HCP thing made any pretenses of be.

You should have found a better place to take the class, then. Rangemaster did a fantastic job and cover much more than firearm safety. For LA, I had no choice. At the time I moved, they made everyone take the class, regardless if you had a permit in another state or not. I got the TN permit first. I also wanted to (and did) take several of the higher level classes from Rangemaster, and the really recommended that I take their HCP class first. Personally, I was glad I did. The first place (some range on Lamar, now closed, for those that remember Memphis in the 90's) gave some horrid advice and completely misrepresented the law to us students.

If you're smelling something fishy, you might want to check your mustache.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I think I figured out exactly why Guy and I hate each other in his last few posts...

Guy have you ever worked in a LE capacity of any type? I'm gonna run that from a security guard to a federal agent. You seem to have alot of "training knowledge" but very little street knowledge. Your comment about NOPD really gave me a chuckle. They know alot about crowd control because of Mardi Gras? Please. Most of them ran off during Katrina.

Ever been to Mardi Gras? Ever been to New Orleans? Ever been a cop in a major town that has over 1 million visitors at one time? Are 25 year old security guards experts in these sorts of things?

No, I haven't been a cop. I worked as a security guard at the Superdome during college for about a year, if you count that. I've trained with cops, and I've hung out with cops. Don't really have to be a cop to know that NOPD knows how to work crowds. It's even been mentioned on TV a time or two. They frequently had policemen from other towns and states and country come in to learn from the experts.

Yes, about a third of the police force left during Kartina. The other two thirds (that would be "most" if you know how to define the word) stayed and tried to control a city in complete choas. No power. No supplies. No backup. Riots and looters in the streets. A completely devestated city. I had relatives and friends in the city during Katrina (including a few cops), so I know directly how bad it really was there. How were things at the hospital today?

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Oh, and I don't hate you. I don't even know you. You are pretty entertaining, though!

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Yeah or killed a bunch of innocents on a bridge.

Do you always judge and entire police force by the actions of a few, in the most extreme condition imaginable?

[Punisher84]

Ever been to Mardi Gras? Ever been to New Orleans? Ever been a cop in a major town that has over 1 million visitors at one time? Are 25 year old security guards experts in these sorts of things?

No, I haven't been a cop. I worked as a security guard at the Superdome during college for about a year, if you count that. I've trained with cops, and I've hung out with cops. Don't really have to be a cop to know that NOPD knows how to work crowds. It's even been mentioned on TV a time or two. They frequently had policemen from other towns and states and country come in to learn from the experts.

Yes, about a third of the police force left during Kartina. The other two thirds (that would be "most" if you know how to define the word) stayed and tried to control a city in complete choas. No power. No supplies. No backup. Riots and looters in the streets. A completely devestated city. I had relatives and friends in the city during Katrina (including a few cops), so I know directly how bad it really was there. How were things at the hospital today?

Mardi gras? No. New Orleans? Yes. Have been to and worked several large concert events though. Also worked with MPD, Shelby County, and Homeland Security in developing our own crowd control procedures for natural disasters and terrorist events for our hospital system. Not exactly an expert, but considering I've been part of coordinating terrorist and natural disaster response drills with Police, Fire, EMS, and the TN National guard I'd say I know a thing or two about working a crowd.

I know several officers who went to New Orleans to help after Katrina and the stories I heard about the NOPD were pretty far from favorable, but that is second hand info.

Things were pretty good last night and thanks for asking.

[Punisher84]

Oh, and I don't hate you. I don't even know you. You are pretty entertaining, though!

Well that's good to know. I am often told I'm the life of the party.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Mardi gras? No. New Orleans? Yes. Have been to and worked several large concert events though. Also worked with MPD, Shelby County, and Homeland Security in developing our own crowd control procedures for natural disasters and terrorist events for our hospital system. Not exactly an expert, but considering I've been part of coordinating terrorist and natural disaster response drills with Police, Fire, EMS, and the TN National guard I'd say I know a thing or two about working a crowd.

I know several officers who went to New Orleans to help after Katrina and the stories I heard about the NOPD were pretty far from favorable, but that is second hand info.

Things were pretty good last night and thanks for asking.

So, you're saying you have a lot of training smarts, but not a lot of street smarts when it comes to crowds?

I've worked a few big concerts, too!!!!! See, I knew I was an expert........

[TGO David]

This thread, while amusing, is starting to lose any redeeming value it had once.

Guy, I really hope to meet you at one of the middle-TN shoots soon. I'm a horrible judge of character on the Internet so maybe I'm wrong so far.

[Punisher84]

So, you're saying you have a lot of training smarts, but not a lot of street smarts when it comes to crowds?

I've worked a few big concerts, too!!!!! See, I knew I was an expert........

Out of respect for David I'll say this and let it go... The largest thing I've dealt with hands on was a gang related shooting where we got two victims and about 60-70 people show up trying to get back to the victims. Handled it with 2 other officers besides myself, made a few arrests, cleared the crowd, and everyone went home in one piece. Maybe I'm cocky, but I didn't think that was too shabby for a 26 year old security guard.

This thread, while amusing, is starting to lose any redeeming value it had once.

Guy, I really hope to meet you at one of the middle-TN shoots soon. I'm a horrible judge of character on the Internet so maybe I'm wrong so far.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm a horrible judge of character on the Internet so maybe I'm wrong so far.

Same here.

[TGO David]

Same here.

No need to wonder, I'm a self-confident prick in person too. Now that just leaves one of us with questions.

[Guest Jamie]

You should have found a better place to take the class, then. Rangemaster did a fantastic job and cover much more than firearm safety.

Why, when it served it's purpose? All I wanted was to meet the state's requirements. I'd already had far more and better weapons training both as a civilian and in the military... and that was before becoming involved in L.E... and I pretty much grew up with cops and attorneys, so already had a good grasp of the legal fundamentals.

If you're smelling something fishy, you might want to check your mustache.

Nah... this is more the reek of a wanna-be mall ninja internet commando than an actual fish...

No, I haven't been a cop. I worked as a security guard at the Superdome during college for about a year, if you count that.

So, no real qualifications to speak of... at least that you've told us about so far. I notice you don't mention any military service in your profile either.

I've trained with cops, and I've hung out with cops.

Why? Any particular reason for that, other than you just liking men in uniform?

This thread, while amusing, is starting to lose any redeeming value it had once.

Yeah, it's pretty much gone to .

Ah well... nothing lasts forever.

[Guest m&pc9]

I've hung out with cops.

Which doughnuts did they like?

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Which doughnuts did they like?

It was New Orleans. They liked benignets, instead.