How far before you pull your weapon?

[Proscene]

You really, REALLY need to read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme"

Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (0749522009954): Massad F. Ayoob: Books

DITTO !

[7dogguy]

I do have to admit that I am not the confrontational type, if I can avoid something....I do.

However the reason i'm asking these questions, again, are just out of curiousity. The main reason I thought about this stuff is not being scared of the liability aspect(legally), but more-so being able to live with myself knowing I made the right decision if I ever had to make that decisionv(heaven forbid).

So like I said, I am just asking for OPINIONS(what else is there really when it comes to a questions like this?). I don't need judgement upon myself or everyone getting into a tizzy about who's opinion is right.

Thanks to everyone who gave a legitament reply.

You will figure it out in your own way and if you get an HCP and carry, will - if you are a reasonable person (which is how you come across) do OK. I don't think anyone who has posted is trying to be anything other than helpful and make good points. There is a big responsibility that comes with gun rights.

Good luck.

PS: also get yourself a good knife if you don't already have one.

[lock n' load]

I once asked a similar question about this topic about a year ago and of all the answers I got back was one that really stuck out. The answer was this: "When the fear of what could happen to you is greater than the fear of going to prison, then the time has come to clear leather." To me, that is one good point to remember. Just my .02.

[Mike]

Do you want "polite" or the f**king truth? Because too many times, the truth AIN'T polite. It ain't courteous, it ain't friendly, and it ain't pretty. And far too often, it's the last thing anybody wants to hear.

As I said, questions were asked, and answers were given. Truthful answers. Anybody wanting more than that probably should be in church or something...

Have I ever told you how much I enjoy reading your posts sometimes?

Mike

[Guest 1010011010]

I will pull my weapon when I reasonably believe a life is in danger and the threat must be stopped.

Anything less and it stays in its holster and I'm doing what I can to avoid or defuse the situation.

I am not a fan of brandishing, though many people report it can be (and has been) effective.

Threatening people with violence is something done by criminals and government agents.

[Guest Jamie]

I will pull my weapon when I reasonably believe a life is in danger and the threat must be stopped.

Anything less and it stays in its holster and I'm doing what I can to avoid or defuse the situation.

I am not a fan of brandishing, though many people report it can be (and has been) effective.

Threatening people with violence is something done by criminals and government agents.

I'm not a fan of brandishing either... I'm all for having the sights lined up where they need to be as soon as possible, however.

If you have what you reasonably believe to be a valid threat coming your way, or worse yet, already right in front of you... it's time to draw. If the threat doesn't then cease and desist, then it's time to fire.

The difference between this and brandishing is that, by and large, a person simply brandishing a weapon generally has absolutely no intention of using it for anything more than intimidation or to scare the person they're confronting or confronted with. Actually firing the gun is not in the program. ( Magic Wand Syndrome: If I wave this, my problems will go away. )

If I feel I need to be pointing a gun at someone, then you can count on me having every intention of firing it as well, and firing it within a very short period of time if the situation doesn't change.

And if I immediately have to draw and fire, then I've probably not been paying attention and have been caught by surprise.

Just thought I'd clarify what I consider brandishing, vs. sound reasoning and tactics. Your own opinions may ( and probably will ) vary. Also, remember that there's no obligation to wait for a threat to become an actual attack. If the person is moving toward you or drawing a weapon while expressing that they intend you harm, it's not really just a threat anymore.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest 1010011010]

if its a fair fight

People have died in "fair fights". I feel no obligation to take that risk just because some guy can't accept that I don't want to fight him, fair or otherwise.

[Guest 1010011010]

Just thought I'd clarify what I consider brandishing, vs. sound reasoning and tactics. Your own opinions may ( and probably will ) vary.

I can't see anything in your post that I find disagreeable.

This: "If you have what you reasonably believe to be a valid threat coming your way, or worse yet, already right in front of you... it's time to draw. If the threat doesn't then cease and desist, then it's time to fire." sums it up particularly well.

[TGO David]

Seriously, I actually think Mas' magnum opus IS quite dated, both in some of the legal thinking, and especially in the hardware coverage.

It is.

There is no such charge in TN.

Aggravated assault maybe, but not "brandishing".

- OS

Correct.

I think the OP needs to think hard before taking the course...or carrying. If you're second guessing yourself this much already.....I'm just saying.

I disagree. TGO exists to allow folks a place to exchange ideas and learn from one another. A person should be free to ask a question so long as others are free to give them truthful, real-world answers without others jumping on them for being cold or crass. As Jamie pointed out, the truth hurts sometimes.

these are the kinds of responses that really get old on TGO. The OP asked a pretty simple question and was just wanting some feedback. Instead of putting him down, why not offer some useful advice? What is so wrong with him questioning when it is appropriate to draw?

It's these responses that make it really hard to ask a question on TGO without fear of being belittled or ridiculed. And also why some of our members are not even posting here anymore(aka Bronker)

I'm trying to see what value you added to this thread. So far, I'm not able to spot it. As for Bronker... he is one of our moderators. I've noticed his absence as well but I am not convinced it has anything to do with what you're suggesting. He seems a little too confident of a person to give up on a community of like-minded individuals just because some of them want to act like children. That's why he's a moderator.

Unless you know something I don't about his absence as of late? If you do, then Bronker and I need to have a discussion about his post. If you don't, then maybe he needs to have a discussion with you about your assumptions.

Three things must exist for you to use lethal force. 1)Proximity- your attacker must be close enough to cause you harm. 2)Intent- your attacker must clearly mean to cause you harm. 3) Capacity- your attacker must have the ability to cause you grave bodily injury. You'll hear those labeled differently, but the intent in the same. So, if a 5' 115 lb woman starts wailing empty handed on a 6' 250 lb man, she has 1 and 2, but not 3, so no deadly force would be allowed. Conversely, deadly force would probably be acceptable if the reverse was true. In another example, pulling a weapon might be acceptable if 3 or 4 guys were attacking you together, even if they weren't armed (assuming you've done nothing to provoke them and have tried to de-escalate the situation.) That's called disparity of force.....and it's in your attacker's favor. The gun simply levels the playing field. I could go on for pages with different examples, and we could debate them for months without resolution.

When I lived in New Orleans, I always carried pepper spray, and I used it on more than one occasion on drunk tourists or aggressive homeless people. The same "higher moral standard" still applies (or risk and assault charge), but it's a great option when you enter one of those gray areas.

Two observations:

Self-defense encounters are very dynamic and tend not to follow rigid guidelines or provide a person adequate time to evaluate all of the criteria you just put forth. If you have to work through a complex ladder of logic like that, frankly I'm not sure you wouldn't get shot while you stood around trying to decide whether or not it was time to draw your gun.

Please tell me where you obtained all of these parameters?

Second, if you had to use your pepper spray that frequently in New Orleans, your situational awareness needs work.

[Glenn]

After reading this whole thread several thing come to mind

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."

Rodney King

Opinions are like _ssholes. Everybody has one but from time to time most stink.

Glenn

[Guest 1010011010]

Please tell me where you obtained all of these parameters?

The whole Proximity/Intent/Capacity thing is a common way people expand on the idea of what constitutes a valid/credible threat during these discussions. It's not like you're going to hold up a finger and ask them to wait while you get out a clipboard and go down your checklist, but "you'll know it when you see it" can be unsatisfying.

All this theorizing can be great fun, but sometime the three guys angrily shouting impolite things aren't a threat and sometimes the 100 pound mouselike woman is. And chances are pretty good that if you're in the situation and keep your wits about you, you will know the difference and be able to react appropriately. But, like I said, being told so doesn't always make you feel any better or dispel your doubts.

[Guest Jamie]

After reading this whole thread several thing come to mind

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out."

Rodney King ;)

Opinions are like _ssholes. Everybody has one but from time to time most stink.

Glenn

You just wanted to be included, didn't ya Glenn?

Seriously... quoting Rodney King?

( Last I heard, R.K. was still getting his dumb ass in trouble, even after all these years. Not a great font of wisdom, that one... )

Edited December 18, 2010 by Jamie
Because a bunch'a damn 1s and 0s posted between me and my intended "victim"...

[Glenn]

Oh god don't tell me you took that Rodney King quote seriously. Maybe my wife is right. She often doesn't get my attempts at humor either and just thinks I am a dumb _ss. Come to think of it, sometimes I am.

Glenn

[Guest Jamie]

Glenn... you saw all the smilies in my post, right?

That usually means that whatever I'm saying is said with tongue firmly embedded in cheek, or as pure sarcasm.... whichever is more appropriate.

[Glenn]

I did and figured that out. I just need to slam myself sometimes.

[Glenn]

That and I had hernia surgery yesterday. The pain meds are making me a little slow today. Well really a lot slow.

Glenn

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Please tell me where you obtained all of these parameters?

Second, if you had to use your pepper spray that frequently in New Orleans, your situational awareness needs work.

HCP 101. Taught in every handgun carry class that I've ever attended. It seems like a lot of words, but you process all those things in a milisecond. Please, tell me where you've attended classes that they HAVEN'T taught this simple logic. Think about it.....if a guy is standing 50 yards away, not moving, holding a knife, saying "I'm gonna kill ya, boy!" can you draw your weapon and shoot him right there? As you answer that question (in a split second) you've have evaluated all three of those criteria, despite not knowing any better.

While I appreciate your armchair quarterbacking my situational awareness, but you'd probably have to understand the situations to be able to make such a condemnation. In both situations, it was necessary for me to walk through large crowds of people in order to get from one place to another. Because of that, I was required to be in close contact with thousands of people crammed into about 10 blocks. While I'm sure you're "situationally aware" enough to keep track of that many people at one time, most of us mere mortals are not. Given that I prevailed in both situations without harm or prison time, I think I did just fine. Mardi Gras is no fun when there's work to be done and, sometimes, even us internet badasses have to leave our homes.

[TGO David]

Think about it.....if a guy is standing 50 yards away, not moving, holding a knife, saying "I'm gonna kill ya, boy!" can you draw your weapon and shoot him right there? As you answer that question (in a split second) you've have evaluated all three of those criteria, despite not knowing any better.

I'm operating at a disadvantage here because I've never shot with or trained with you, so I have no clue if you've really bought into all of what you're selling or if you're just trying to see how much of it I'll respond to. I'm a keep it simple sort of guy. If some jackass is standing 50 yds away from me, holding a knife, telling me he's going to kill me, he's not far enough away to keep from being outside my range of accuracy with my handgun. I'm pretty damn accurate at 50yds. I know because I've seen me do it.

If he starts approaching, my accuracy just keeps going up with each step. Eventually we start putting lead to flight, but I guarantee that the gun was out of it's holster long before he got within his effective range of me.

While I'm sure you're "situationally aware" enough to keep track of that many people at one time, most of us mere mortals are not. Given that I prevailed in both situations without harm or prison time, I think I did just fine. Mardi Gras is no fun when there's work to be done and, sometimes, even us internet badasses have to leave our homes.

Most of us badasses learn to determine where we might have to rely upon physical means of deterrence (or defense) and opt not to go to those places. You don't get to be an old badass without figuring this stuff out when you're a young badass. It sounds like maybe it's not so much "situational awareness" as it is discretion in this case.

PS: I've heard so much bullsh#t espoused in HCP 101 classes that I could package it and sell it as fertilizer. It's almost as prolific from HCP instructors as it is on the Internet.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm operating at a disadvantage here because I've never shot with or trained with you, so I have no clue if you've really bought into all of what you're selling or if you're just trying to see how much of it I'll respond to. I'm a keep it simple sort of guy. If some jackass is standing 50 yds away from me, holding a knife, telling me he's going to kill me, he's not far enough away to keep from being outside my range of accuracy with my handgun. I'm pretty damn accurate at 50yds. I know because I've seen me do it.

If he starts approaching, my accuracy just keeps going up with each step. Eventually we start putting lead to flight, but I guarantee that the gun was out of it's holster long before he got within his effective range of me.

Most of us badasses learn to determine where we might have to rely upon physical means of deterrence (or defense) and opt not to go to those places. You don't get to be an old badass without figuring this stuff out when you're a young badass. It sounds like maybe it's not so much "situational awareness" as it is discretion in this case.

PS: I've heard so much bullsh#t espoused in HCP 101 classes that I could package it and sell it as fertilizer. It's almost as prolific from HCP instructors as it is on the Internet.

Discretion wasn't part of the equation. Work required that I be in the French Quarter, and Mardi Gras meant I was surrounded by people.

The first place I heard that bullsh#t was Rangemaster from Tom Givens himself. I can scan the page out of his training manual, if you'd like. He's a sponsor here, isn't he?

[Guest spoolie]

I disagree. TGO exists to allow folks a place to exchange ideas and learn from one another. A person should be free to ask a question so long as others are free to give them truthful, real-world answers without others jumping on them for being cold or crass. As Jamie pointed out, the truth hurts sometimes.

Ok think about this, OP apparently is second guessing him/herself already before even taking the course or actually carrying a weapon. Let's say they go and take it...wait the period and get the HCP, start carrying on a regular basis. This person probably isn't very self confident....a situation arises where they get spooked, pull a weapon and someone ends up dead/injured. Then he/she can say, "I got on a internet forum and asked all the question before I did anything". Wrong. That's why I said that some people aren't cut out to carry the responsibility. If you're on a forum asking questions that don't really have a right answer...maybe you should ask yourself if you're really ready. I felt that the person wants someone to spoon feed him/her a answer that will make him/her feel better about doing it. I personally don't want to be around a person that isn't confident about everything that they do.

This rant may not make sense...but it does to me in my head....

[TGO David]

The first place I heard that bullsh#t was Rangemaster from Tom Givens himself. I can scan the page out of his training manual, if you'd like. He's a sponsor here, isn't he?

I'm not sure what you're implying. Should I suddenly change my opinion based on the fact that someone is a sponsor? What would that say about my credibility?

Our sponsors are welcome to disagree with me, just as I am with them.

Again, I've never shot with you. You may have your stuff together and be completely right. Maybe I'm wrong. That's the beauty of the Internets... we get to debate this stuff and honestly what I think about your tactics or what you think about mine doesn't really matter much since neither of us are expected to have the other's back (nor likely would we be in a position to be required to do so) if the sh#t hits the fan. As long as your tactics get you home at night, good for you. Still doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

[TGO David]

Ok think about this, OP apparently is second guessing him/herself already before even taking the course or actually carrying a weapon. Let's say they go and take it...wait the period and get the HCP, start carrying on a regular basis. This person probably isn't very self confident....a situation arises where they get spooked, pull a weapon and someone ends up dead/injured. Then he/she can say, "I got on a internet forum and asked all the question before I did anything". Wrong. That's why I said that some people aren't cut out to carry the responsibility. If you're on a forum asking questions that don't really have a right answer...maybe you should ask yourself if you're really ready. I felt that the person wants someone to spoon feed him/her a answer that will make him/her feel better about doing it. I personally don't want to be around a person that isn't confident about everything that they do.

This rant may not make sense...but it does to me in my head....

Makes sense to me and I'm not even inside you.

[mikegideon]

Makes sense to me and I'm not even inside you.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm not sure what you're implying. Should I suddenly change my opinion based on the fact that someone is a sponsor? What would that say about my credibility?

Our sponsors are welcome to disagree with me, just as I am with them.

Again, I've never shot with you. You may have your stuff together and be completely right. Maybe I'm wrong. That's the beauty of the Internets... we get to debate this stuff and honestly what I think about your tactics or what you think about mine doesn't really matter much since neither of us are expected to have the other's back (nor likely would we be in a position to be required to do so) if the sh#t hits the fan. As long as your tactics get you home at night, good for you. Still doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

Not implying anything. Just mentioning one, of many, credible sources that teach that bullsh#t. James Yeager (along with Andy Stafford of OPS) is another. Clint Smith is a third. It has nothing to do with tactics; it's simply the building block of a justifiable self defense shooting. Applying law, logic and common sense to taking another man's life is not a tactic.

For example, while I'm sure you are quite capable of making 50 yard shots, doing so in the scenario I described above would probably end with a trip to jail and a manslaughter charge. Why? Because a man, not moving, 50 yards away is not an immediate threat to you. He is not advancing towards you, and the weapon he possesses does not work as long distances. Your life is not immediately in danger. Now, if we whips out a rifle, or starts running towards you, then you have a different situation. Again, whether you realize it or not, you are constantly reevaluation those three criteria in any sort of self defense situation.

[TGO David]

For example, while I'm sure you are quite capable of making 50 yard shots, doing so in the scenario I described above would probably end with a trip to jail and a manslaughter charge. Why? Because a man, not moving, 50 yards away is not an immediate threat to you. He is not advancing towards you, and the weapon he possesses does not work as long distances. Your life is not immediately in danger. Now, if we whips out a rifle, or starts running towards you, then you have a different situation. Again, whether you realize it or not, you are constantly reevaluation those three criteria in any sort of self defense situation.

I think you totally missed the point I was trying to make.

Can I just be a sarcastic ass for a moment and say ... Yeah, I plan on shooting someone 50 yds away from me in a self-defense situation.

The rest of it... whatever. I'm hungry and suddenly reminded of why it's usually more productive for me to do something other than argue on the Internet.