How far before you pull your weapon?

[Bubbatn]

So I got to thinking last night just out of boredom really. How far can someone take something before you would feel the need to pull your weapon? Granted I haven't even gotten my HCP yet, but just kinda curious.

For instance, You were in some sort of place of business(store, restaurant, whatever)....something happens and here is some macho man trying to pick a fight with you for whatever reason(he thinks you were checking out his woman...lol). At what point does it go from "Some dude being an idiot" to "I feel I need to draw my weapon"....And it being reasonably justified? I mean if you just think "this guy is gonna take a swing at me"...is that enough, or what?

I know that is probably a really broad question, and could vary depending on the circumstances and location probably, so feel free to through you own scenario(s) in there if need be.

[Guest drv2fst]

Once you decide to carry a gun you have to drastically rethink your position on conflict. You have the moral responsibility to walk away from a conflict if you are able. I'll let the lawyers on here quote what the books say about justification. But the moral justification is that as soon as you draw a gun someone is likely to die. So you better be really sure before you decide to draw that someones life was already in danger and drawing just improves your odds.

[Guest Jamie]

How far? When it's gone far enough to make me think I may have to kill someone to get out of the situation in one piece.

[Bubbatn]

How far? When it's gone far enough to make me think I may have to kill someone to get out of the situation in one piece.

Ok, So by "in one piece", do you mean simply alive....or uninjured?

Say in the scenario I mentioned, Dude starts running his mouth, you turn to walk away and he tries to grab you or jump on your back or something of what sort? What then?

I want everyone to keep in mind that this is saying I'm gonna pull a gun on anyone who looks at me wrong or says a "stray" word to me, I'm just curious as to how you come to that decision of whats justified?

[I_Like_Pie]

Simply put....if you have no other choice and fear the loss of life.

Not maybe, not somehow, but if Me or someone I care for is about to die. That is about it.

[Garufa]

When you are not armed you should think of several ways to get of a situation. That's just smart living.

When you are carrying, you need to think of several more before you draw.

[LeadWaster]

drv2fst makes a lot of sense. I would think (and I'm not an attorney) that "imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury" would be justification. I think the opportunity to retreat to safety would be the first course of action, unless you are in your home and your state recognizes "castle doctrine".

[Guest Jamie]

Ok, So by "in one piece", do you mean simply alive....or uninjured?

Say in the scenario I mentioned, Dude starts running his mouth, you turn to walk away and he tries to grab you or jump on your back or something of what sort? What then?

Then he gets a broken wrist and probably some other part or piece broken or dislocated... If he has friends that want to join the fray then it's time to draw and see if they really want to get involved after all...

Over and above all that, first person, either alone or with others, who draws a weapon of any sort gets immediately shot. No questions asked.

Oh, and for what it's worth... when someone attacks you, you'll probably never know if you're only going to be injured until it's too late to really do anything about it.

[Guest CJK]

So I got to thinking last night just out of boredom really. How far can someone take something before you would feel the need to pull your weapon? Granted I haven't even gotten my HCP yet, but just kinda curious.

For instance, You were in some sort of place of business(store, restaurant, whatever)....something happens and here is some macho man trying to pick a fight with you for whatever reason(he thinks you were checking out his woman...lol). At what point does it go from "Some dude being an idiot" to "I feel I need to draw my weapon"....And it being reasonably justified? I mean if you just think "this guy is gonna take a swing at me"...is that enough, or what?

I know that is probably a really broad question, and could vary depending on the circumstances and location probably, so feel free to through you own scenario(s) in there if need be.

You really, REALLY need to read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme"

Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (0749522009954): Massad F. Ayoob: Books

[Oh Shoot]

You really, REALLY need to read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme"..

Hell, you'd never shoot anyone for anything after reading that, might as well not carry at all.

Seriously, I actually think Mas' magnum opus IS quite dated, both in some of the legal thinking, and especially in the hardware coverage. After all, it's over 30 years old.

- OS

[Guest CJK]

Hell, you'd never shoot anyone for anything after reading that, might as well not carry at all.

LOL

Seriously, I actually think Mas' magnum opus IS quite dated, both in some of the legal thinking, and especially in the hardware coverage. After all, it's over 30 years old.

I don't disagree, but I still think it's good reading -- Mas raises lots of issues that many people who own guns may not have thought about before.

Kathy Jackson's Cornered Cat web site (Cornered Cat) is also excellent, thought-provoking reading.

Edited December 17, 2010 by CJK

[aquaman67]

My HCP instructor told us that you must be in fear for your life or serious bodily injury and getting your nose bloodied isn't serious bodily injury.

Meaning a dude your size kicking your butt isn't just cause.

Three guys bigger than you with baseball bats however is another story.

[Guest Jamie]

My HCP instructor told us that you must be in fear for your life or serious bodily injury and getting your nose bloodied isn't serious bodily injury.

No, but I think most people would agree that a concussion, or dying from a skull fracture IS. And you can get either one from a simple punch to the face.

Meaning a dude your size kicking your butt isn't just cause.

And who gets to decide where the line is between "your ass is well and truly kicked" and "On, now you're f'ed up."? You, or the guy wailin' the out of you?

'Cause I am not inclined to leave the decision up to someone else.

Three guys bigger than you with baseball bats however is another story.

One guy, smaller than you but knowing what he's doing, can kill you dead without any weapons or help of any kind. And if you doubt it, I have some people I'd like to introduce you to.

Also, I don't care to be on the receiving end of somebody else's "lucky punch".

Sorry, but I'll take my chances with arguing in court before I'll chance spending the rest of my life drooling on myself while somebody tries to spoon-feed me...

[Bubbatn]

Ok, So another instance.....your carrying your weapon, dude jumps on you trying to kick your butt or whatever(you don't draw the weapon), you try to retreat but the guy won't let you, so you try to fend him off...but he tries to(or better yet does) get your gun which he caught a glimpse of during the tussle?

I guess stuff like this is one reason why I haven't gotten my HCP yet. I am not sure enough in myself to know that I would react in a situation appropriately. And I have read alot of threads like this on "reasonable justification", however no matter what someone tells you about their situation....How do you truly know?

Edited December 17, 2010 by Bubbatn

[Guest CJK]

Ok, So another instance.....your carrying your weapon, dude jumps on you trying to kick your butt or whatever(you don't draw the weapon), you try to retreat but the guy won't let you, so you try to fend him off...but he tries to(or better yet does) get your gun which he caught a glimpse of during the tussle?

If he gets your gun, you are as good as dead.

I'm with Jamie -- if someone has assaulted me or if they are obviously about to (charging toward me, for example), they are going to be on the receiving end of a lead overdose.

[Guest Jamie]

Damn Bubba... How 'bout you just shoot his ass before it gets that far?

Let me explain something... if you carry a gun long enough, you'll probably end up pointing it at somebody - or a lot of somebodies - that you don't end up shooting.

Now, if they're approaching you in a threatening manner, or have actually grabbed you or otherwise put their hands on you in a threatening manner... then go ahead and draw your gun and see if they want to continue, or if they'd like to allow you to break contact and go on about your business.

And you need to have made up your mind to do this well before it ever happens, IF it ever happens.

If you're just going to constantly worry about what you may or may not do though, then maybe you really shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.

BTW... There are no graveyards that I'm responsible for filling... not even a small one. And that's after having ended up pointing a gun at A LOT of people over the years.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest Jamie]

If he gets your gun, you are as good as dead.

Unless you go to plan "B" and knife him or shoot him with your back-up weapon first.

You DO have a back-up that you know how to use, don't you?

[aquaman67]

Here's some more reading for the OP.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/45806-unholstering-your-weapon.html

People can and have been charged with brandishing.

[Guest CJK]

Unless you go to plan "B" and knife him or shoot him with your back-up weapon first.

You DO have a back-up that you know how to use, don't you?

Absolutely. (But if you lose your weapon to the BG, you are very likely to get shot with it before you can bring your backup to bear. Point being: learn and practice weapon retention techniques so you don't find yourself having to get your backup out of that stupid ankle holster, weak side pocket, belly band, or wherever you've put it.)

[Guest Jamie]

People can and have been charged with brandishing.

Yes, and one poor bastard got charged for having a gun on school property because he DIDN'T point his gun at his attacker.

Anyone else remember that one? I'm still trying to dig up the old article on it. The judge said if he'd actually pointed the gun at the fellow threatening him with a knife, he wouldn't have had to charge him. It was at a school baseball game or something of the like, if I recall correctly.

The point being here that you have to be dealing with - or believe you're dealing with - a valid threat, not simply trying to look like a tough guy or something.

[Fallguy]

How far? When it's gone far enough to make me think I may have to kill someone to get out of the situation in one piece.

If you're just going to constantly worry about what you may or may not do though, then maybe you really shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place.

+1 (or 2)

[Guest Jamie]

Absolutely. (But if you lose your weapon to the BG, you are very likely to get shot with it before you can bring your backup to bear. Point being: learn and practice weapon retention techniques so you don't find yourself having to get your backup out of that stupid ankle holster, weak side pocket, belly band, or wherever you've put it.)

If I lose my primary weapon then we're obviously already "up close and personal" and I'll already be reaching for the weapon he DOESN'T know I have before he ever gets his hand on my primary or back out of arm's reach...

[Oh Shoot]

Here's some more reading for the OP.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/45806-unholstering-your-weapon.html

People can and have been charged with brandishing.

There is no such charge in TN.

Aggravated assault maybe, but not "brandishing".

- OS

[Fallguy]

There is no such charge in TN.

Aggravated assault maybe, but not "brandishing".

- OS

Yep...

[aquaman67]

Sorry,

I mis-spoke.

Not charged with brandishing; charged for brandishing.

Better?

Edited December 17, 2010 by aquaman67