Did anyone ever see a Ruger Mini 14 in a defensive carbine class?

[frontier737]

Might be odd to ask but I'm thinking of buying one and was wondering if anyone has ever seen one at a defensive rifle class. I know most guys like the AR type and I do as well. But there is something that I really like about the Mini 14.

I have taken a few pistol classes at CIS with Dustin and Todd (anyone hear from him lately?) and plan on taking a rifle class there in the spring. I suspect there would be mostly AR's and AK's there...would a Mini keep up?

Thanks.

Edited December 13, 2010 by frontier737
spelling

[jcj]

I've had a chance to shoot one quite a bit, just not in a competition scenario. I'd say the Mini would hold its own quite well. Bulletproof design and quite accurate as they come from the factory. I don't know if you're a "TNPer", but the YouTube user nutnfancy did a video called "Mini 14 against the world." Probably worth watching if you haven't already. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Fk84KLiaa4

[mikegideon]

I have a Mini 14 carbine and an AR15 carbine. I haven't been to any carbine classes, but I can comment on the two rifles. They're both reliable. My Mini has a 16" barrel, and is sitting in a Hogue stock right now. It doesn't have a flash hider or compensator. My AR has a standard A2 flash hider.

I had both of them at the range one day, and made a few comparisons. The Mini has more muzzle rise, and a mag change is a lot more finicky. It will take a littler more time to get back on target and to reload. I'm sure you can stick the right compensator on the muzzle to help mitigate the muzzle rise, but there's nothing you can do with the rock-in style mag change except to try to get good at it.

[First Strike]

I should think with practice it would become easy and qucik. A mini14 mag change would be similar to an AK mag change, use the full mag to hit the mag release lever, then just rock the mag in then use the free hand to work the charging handle, then rock on.

[JRWnTN]

Pat Rogers of EAG Tactical said that he'd never seen a Mini-14 finish a carbine class. His classes run through 800 to 1500+ rounds.

When you consider the ergonomics of both guns, magazines, and accuracy, you're handicapping yourself with the Mini-14.

[Mike]

Not to mention they have numerous issues with POA/POI shift when they get warm.

Get an AR or an AK for serious use. Leave the Mini's for safe duty.

Mike

[mikegideon]

Not to mention they have numerous issues with POA/POI shift when they get warm.

Get an AR or an AK for serious use. Leave the Mini's for safe duty.

Mike

That depends on the Mini. Latest generation with a 16" barrel probably doesn't shift much more than an AR. Mine has an Accustrut, so I can't see any stringing at all. Older Minis were all over the place. I still prefer the AR, but accuracy isn't one of the reasons.

[gregintenn]

I have an early mini 14 ranch rifle, and I'll shoot it against anyone's ar15.

[Oh Shoot]

Pat Rogers of EAG Tactical said that he'd never seen a Mini-14 finish a carbine class. His classes run through 800 to 1500+ rounds...

Oh horse pucky. He may have said it, but it's still horse pucky. Mini 14 will do all 1500 rounds without any cleaning. With lacquer coated steel ammo.

Unlike half or more of the ARs out there.

Not to mention they have numerous issues with POA/POI shift when they get warm....

Yeah, "not to mention" is the best advice, at least for the present generation models. There is no more of a shift than with most ARs.

- OS

[Mike]

Not to mention they have numerous issues with POA/POI shift when they get warm....

Yeah, "not to mention" is the best advice, at least for the present generation models. There is no more of a shift than with most ARs.

- OS

Rock on, dude. If you have one that runs when it's dirty and shoots where you point it, you got a good one. The ones I've shot did not display those characteristics at all. Maybe I didn't have new enough ones that had all the updates. I've shot 6 different ones and all of them showed the same problems. Poor ergonomics, jams, stringing shots while warming up and cooling, and general unreliability.

Just my experience with the platform.

Mike

[Oh Shoot]

Rock on, dude. If you have one that runs when it's dirty and shoots where you point it, you got a good one. The ones I've shot did not display those characteristics at all. Maybe I didn't have new enough ones that had all the updates. I've shot 6 different ones and all of them showed the same problems. Poor ergonomics, jams, stringing shots while warming up and cooling, and general unreliability.

Just my experience with the platform.

Mike

Don't know where you could find 6 of any vintage that would be unreliable, you must have some kind of luck. Or maybe just non factory mags, THE major cause of feeding probs.

Older ones certainly are far from tack drivers, but being minute of torso and always feeding anything and always going boom, even when filthy, is Mini14/30 main selling card, otherwise there wouldn't be a bazillion of them out there.

- OS

Edited December 20, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest Jamie]

Older ones certainly are far from tack drivers, but being minute of torso and always feeding anything and always going boom, even when filthy, is Mini14/30 main selling card, otherwise there wouldn't be a bazillion of them out there.

- OS

I don't have a horse in this race, but it's early, and the rest of y'all are apparently not awake yet to keep me amused, so...

As much as I don't like Nutnfancy, and think he's FOS concerning a lot of things, I have to agree with him that there are a lot of prejudices concerning the Mini-14/30.

No, they're not as "tacti-cool" as the "Evil Black Assault Rifles", and no, they won't generally put all their rounds in the same hole from a hundred yards, without somebody spending A LOT of money and doing a lot of work. ( They also don't "crap where they eat" every time you pull the trigger though, either. )

But... as OhShoot pointed out, they are reliable, at least with factory mags, and they'll generally do a good job at reasonable ranges in tactical-type situations. They are pretty good general-purpose long guns. If they weren't then they wouldn't have been in production for as long as they have, I think. ( 36 years now of continuous production, I believe )

Given my own limited experience with a couple of older, non-ranch models ( Iron sights, no optics ), I'd have to say that they'll easily do at 100 to 125 yards what the typical handgun will do at 20 - 25, as a rule, straight out of the box.

I know we certainly never had any trouble with 'em when it came to controlling the feral dog population on the farms around here, when I was much younger. And I can assure you, if they were unreliable or inaccurate, they'd have never come out of the gun cabinet. ( Most feral dogs seem to learn pretty quickly not to get inside of 100 yards when there's people around. )

From my own experience, I wouldn't have any problem with using one in any class anybody wanted to offer... unless it was some sort of extreme-range sniper's school or something of the like.

( A mini will probably be the first self-loading center fire rifle I buy, whenever I finally have the funds and get around to it. I'm just not all that fond of either ARs or AKs. )

Edited December 20, 2010 by Jamie

[Mike]

Don't know where you could find 6 of any vintage that would be unreliable, you must have some kind of luck. Or maybe just non factory mags, THE major cause of feeding probs.

Older ones certainly are far from tack drivers, but being minute of torso and always feeding anything and always going boom, even when filthy, is Mini14/30 main selling card, otherwise there wouldn't be a bazillion of them out there.

- OS

I don't know if the magazines were factory or not. There is a really good possibility that they weren't If so that may have been a contributing factor in the poor light I view the rifles.

( They also don't "crap where they eat" every time you pull the trigger though, either. )

That is a silly argument. I have the carbon build up to prove it to be a non-issue.

Mike

[mikegideon]

I don't know if the magazines were factory or not. There is a really good possibility that they weren't If so that may have been a contributing factor in the poor light I view the rifles.

That is a silly argument. I have the carbon build up to prove it to be a non-issue.

Mike

Factory mags work. The others are a crap shoot. I have a bunch of crappy 30 round plastic mags that came with mine, but I only use the Ruger mags. The factory mags are expensive, and were hard to get for awhile.

[Guest Jamie]

That is a silly argument. I have the carbon build up to prove it to be a non-issue.

Mike

Wasn't an argument, Mike, only a stated fact.

As far as arguing the reliability difference between an AR or a Mini... I guess I'm not really qualified, since my last major involvement with either gun was well before you were born. ( The AR/M-16 platform I have the most experience with had a triangular handguard. I never spent much time fooling with 'em after that. )

I do know that the AR blows more crud into the action than a Mini does though. Doesn't necessarily mean that it'll cause you problems with what you do with it, but it is a fact, and a point in the Mini's favor.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Jamie

[JRWnTN]

The original question was whether to take a Mini-14 or AR to a carbine class. If anyone wants to go through several hundred rounds a day, scores of magazine changes and thinks a Mini is the gun of choice, have at at.

I've owned, shot and watched others use both guns over the last 30 years. I think the AR is superior in every way. If you have a Mini-14 that is accurate and reliable, you are truly blessed.

[mikegideon]

The original question was whether to take a Mini-14 or AR to a carbine class. If anyone wants to go through several hundred rounds a day, scores of magazine changes and thinks a Mini is the gun of choice, have at at.

I've owned, shot and watched others use both guns over the last 30 years. I think the AR is superior in every way. If you have a Mini-14 that is accurate and reliable, you are truly blessed.

I personally agree that the AR is superior. But the question was if the Mini is capable of making through a course. A late generation Mini with good ammo and good RUGER mags runs fine. I don't know if it will do a whole carbine course without problems. Not my choice, but that wasn't the question.

[Guest Jamie]

The original question was whether to take a Mini-14 or AR to a carbine class.

Actually, this was the original question:

I suspect there would be mostly AR's and AK's there...would a Mini keep up?

I personally suspect it would, if he sticks to factory mags.

If anyone wants to go through several hundred rounds a day, scores of magazine changes and thinks a Mini is the gun of choice, have at at.

I've owned, shot and watched others use both guns over the last 30 years. I think the AR is superior in every way. If you have a Mini-14 that is accurate and reliable, you are truly blessed.

The AR may ( or may not ) be superior.. but, in light of this....

But there is something that I really like about the Mini 14.

... maybe it's just the gun he should take? Especially if it's one he plans on using a lot anyway.

I really don't see where he will be working too far behind the curve with this particular gun if he likes it, and he's familiar with it, especially if it's one of the newer, "improved" ones. And also if it's being compared to an AK as well as an AR.

Might not be the absolute best choice, but we are talking about a class here, not a competition.

One way or the other, Frontier737 let us know what you decide, and how it works out if you do take a Mini.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Jamie

[Warbird]

I have a couple of mini 14's and like them a lot. They are good rifles for use on the farm or ranch. Based on my experiences with running them until they get good and very hot, I agree with Mike on running them in a carbine class. See if someone responds who has actually run one in a carbine class or under those conditions and see what their experience has been. I think there are several reasons I would not run mine in a class.

Don't dismiss the AAR reports from those who train people for a living. They see just about everything and you can usually find how well a particular gun runs by reading AAR's. If that is what you are set on buying, get one and run it. See how it goes for you. I have seen guys run their Thompsons in carbine classes. Some were glad they made their selections, some were not.

Bottom line, if you are set on having a Mini 14, then get it and train with it. Become proficient with it. It doesn't matter if it would be my pick or anyone else's for that matter. Know how to use it and use it well. If it does or doesn't make it through a class then you have learned something about it.

Of the major designs the AR is probably the easiest to shoot, reload, clear and do so for a couple of long shooting days. That said I will run and AK in a carbine class for the heck of it. It is slower, but I want the proficiency with the platform. It isn't a competition.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Warbird

[Guest Jamie]

I have a couple of mini 14's and like them a lot. They are good rifles for use on the farm or ranch. Based on my experiences with running them until they get good and very hot, I agree with Mike on running them in a carbine class.

Older or newer guns? I'm curious, due to the claims that most of the poa/poi problems have been cured in the newer guns with heavier barrels.

See if someone responds who has actually run one in a carbine class or under those conditions and see what their experience has been.

Always a good plan, to get the opinion of someone who's actually done it.

I think there are several reasons I would not run mine in a class.

Don't keep us in suspense, what are they?

Don't dismiss the AAR reports from those who train people for a living. They see just about everything and you can usually find how well a particular gun runs by reading AAR's.

I'm always leery of a such due to some folk's personal preferences getting in the way. If they've set their course up to favor a particular platform, even unintentionally, one that doesn't quite conform is going to do poorly even if it performs adequately for it's type.

In the end, in my opinion, the rifle shouldn't be much more than a prop, and the information taught should be valid with any type of carbine/rifle that a person finds themselves having to use, at least to a large degree.

As I said earlier, the class shouldn't be a competition, nor should it be a torture test for the gun.

If that is what you are set on buying, get one and run it. See how it goes for you. I have seen guys run their Thompsons in carbine classes. Some were glad they made their selections, some were not.

That's pretty much my take on it; give it a go and see how you like it. Could be the gun loses that "something" that attracted you to it to begin with. One way or the other, it should be a learning experience, and that's what you'll be there for.

Edit: Gah!!! It seems you edited your post while I was typing this one. Oh well, this will do.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jamie

[Warbird]

Sorry Jamie, I tend to edit after seeing a post in its final form. Suffice it to say I prefer the AR platform for training as it is easy to shoot and reload. I am a big believer in training and becoming proficient with the rifle(s) you like and prefer to own. So if the choice is Mini 14, have at it.

All of my minis are older. I don't care so much for the trigger after a lot of shooting, even after reworking. It isn't crazy bad though. They aren't as easy to reload either. Then again neither is the AK. They are a great truck gun and for a few years even after selling my AR's I kept the minis. I bought more AR's and that is what I use now. As I said though I really like the AK and probably keep an AK in the truck or ready to rock for defense more than I do the AR. One of my AK's is at Rifle Dynamics at this moment getting a rework and my next class will be shot with that AK at least 50% of the time.

[Guest Jamie]

Sorry Jamie, I tend to edit after seeing a post in its final form.

Don't worry about it, I do it all the time myself. I'll think I'm done, then in reading back over it think of something else I want to say, or a way I could'a said something better...

Suffice it to say I prefer the AR platform for training as it is easy to shoot and reload.

In a way I suppose it is, but that doesn't really have anything to do with reliability, or it getting all the way through a class without problems.

I am a big believer in training and becoming proficient with the rifle(s) you like and prefer to own. So if the choice is Mini 14, have at it.

On this part I agree wholeheartedly, and it is exactly my point with the OP.

Hell, if he had an SKS that he liked and wanted to use, I wouldn't tell him not to.

... I would tell him to make sure he had a truck-load of stripper clips and a good pair of gloves though.

All of my minis are older. I don't care so much for the trigger after a lot of shooting, even after reworking. It isn't crazy bad though. They aren't as easy to reload either.

I'd like to hear from somebody who's run both the old and new minis through a carbine course, and hear how "improved" the new ones actually are.

I'm really just not wild about either the AR or AK design, and that just doesn't leave much left to choose from, these days.

Odd as it's going to sound, I really just don't care for pistol grips on rifles... but do on shotguns. I just don't feel like I can get the most out of a rifle with a pistol grip on it, for some reason. And those thumb hole things you see on some AKs isn't much better.

I know... weird.

( BTW, it's been long enough ago that I can't really address any differences with the trigger. I don't recall having any problems with it, but we all know what that's worth. )

Then again neither is the AK. They are a great truck gun and for a few years even after selling my AR's I kept the minis. I bought more AR's and that is what I use now. As I said though I really like the AK and probably keep an AK in the truck or ready to rock for defense more than I do the AR. One of my AK's is at Rifle Dynamics at this moment getting a rework and my next class will be shot with that AK at least 50% of the time.

Other than the mini's accuracy issues, it seems like operation-wise... the manual of arms, if you will... is a lot more similar to the AK than it is different. Especially in the mag change department. And for reliability... well, it is a scaled-down Garand action, so using a proper feeding device in good working order should make it one of the most reliable guns to be found... or at least I would think.

Anyway, I suppose it's just me, but I really don't see where or why there should be a problem getting a Mini 14/30 though a carbine course. No, it might not be some people's choice, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't do just fine, especially if an AK-47 or it's like will.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Jamie

[Warbird]

The reasons I don't care for the mini don't have a lot to do with the reliability. I will say this, if Pat Rogers said he has never had a mini make it through one of his classes, I would not think for a minute he lied about it. Now if you asked him more he might suggest reasons for it. He does have his preferences, but is not a whore for any product he doesn't believe in, or closed minded to others preferences.

I cannot speak to the reliability part of the mini in a course. I have never shot one in a course, nor seen one used in a class I have been involved with. But, I know people have used them in classes.

Being left handed I actually find the AK easier to use in certain ways than the AR.

I went away from the AR for several years. I really disliked the fixed carry handle, on my Colts back then. I went back to them because they are greatly improved now IMO with the flat tops. In fact I really enjoy shooting them now.

I have only shot, but have no real experience pushing a newer mini hard.

[Garufa]

I have half a mind to buy a Mini and take a carbine class. I would use an M1 Carbine but that ammo is getting to damn expensive.

[zgunbear]

in 1997 I built one for a Metro SWAT officer in Nashville.

He wanted it to use an entry gun.

It had the tube folding stock, I shortened the tube portion so it was not too long when he used it with hard armor.

Also shortened the barrel and silver soldered on a flash hider. It was a sweet little carbine.

I only fired one magazine through it after wards to function test it but it shot great.

I do not know what happened to it. It may still be in use.

So I guess it was reliable and sturdy enough for him