A Little Gun History

[Im Neero]

How is this for verification?

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/robbery.html

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/assault.html

http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/crime/homicide.html

They all show a spike after 1996.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

And 2 out of the 3 show a significant dip after that. Not enough for me.

[Im Neero]

??? All that the email claims is that there was a spike in crime a year after the gun ban. That is verified. The major drops in crime didn't occur until around 2001-2002, 5 to 6 years after the gun ban. I don't know what caused the drops in crime, but it probably wasn't the 96 gun ban, which is the point in question.

This would be a good time to try and reframe your argument, but if you want I can provide more evidence that the gun buy-back program did not result in a decrease in crime and the increases cited in the e-mail truly did occur.

[towerclimber37]

If you'll check deeper into it, there isn't even any proof that Ed Chenel is an Australian police officer.

And supposedly, his e-mail was only made aware to pro-gun groups in April of 2005?? Well this particular e-mail has been in question since 2001, so how does that figure out evenly? The gun buy-back was in 1997. So even if the claim was made in 2001, how is that 12 months since the Australians were banned?

I agree with the guy with the beam in his eye. We HAVE to make sure of our facts before spreading them if we want to be believable. There's just way too much that can be skewed in this particular type chain mail to sound trustworthy.

well..I can understand his frame of mind..he's a police officer that SUPPORTS firearm ownership.

I wouldn't put my bonafides out there either.

I can state that I spent 10 years in the infantry and am fully conversant with over 51 different types of weapons..but if I didn't show you my dd214 (and I wouldn't if the govt started mewling about taking my firearms) you wouldn't know.

the point is, his statistics were right on the money.

while both sides DO slant the statistics, historically, our side doesn't have to skew them that much...pro gun advocates simply report what they see..and we're a bunch of wolves..if something doesn't ring true, we usually eat the one who puts it out there.

we value accuracy above all else after all

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Excuse me, but I was under the impression we were talking about gun-related crime (due to the ban) whether it was one year or ten. If you're trying to convince an anti-gun person, this particular e-mail won't cut it because while the ban is still in place, the crime is also dropping according to the graphs which you have provided. The pro-gun folks already know banning guns is a bad idea. Big deal that one year after a ban, the crime increased. Crime has increased where I live yearly since I can remember with NO bans in place. How do we now explain that decrease in crime to the anti-gunners?

I have no argument with you or anyone else actually so I won't bother reframing anything. I'll stick with what I said from response number one, that chain mails are chain mails and 99% of them are BS and cannot be undeniably verified. THAT is my only argument.

[Im Neero]

I'll stick with what I said from response number one, that chain mails are chain mails and 99% of them are BS and cannot be undeniably verified. THAT is my only argument.

If you put it that way I agree completely.

[towerclimber37]

If you put it that way I agree completely.

same here. and you have a great point!

thats' an old email and we've all been over that one a long time ago.

its better to use US statistics anyhow...thats where we live.

[PackinMama]

Wow I didn't mean to cause such heated arguments over this I just got the email and thought you guys might be interested in it. I promise I will never post anything like that again unless I know for sure it is accurate and factual. We pro gunners need to stick together and I absolutely agree that we also need to stick to the facts But.....what about the information in the email other than the Austrailia stats?? Anyone disagree with anything else (or have anything to add maybe)?

[Guest canynracer]

I liked the post... so we leave the Australia piece out...the thing still has the same impact..hell the german point alone is good enough for me!!

keep postin, the cool thing about this place is we will come together, debate, straighten it out by doing some research, and we will just get the facts and go with that!!

nothing wrong with posting that stuff...dont sweat it!

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Dont be sorry mama....discussions are good for the soul. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. All stories, opinions, articles have different viewpoints and translations. Nothing at all wrong with that.

[towerclimber37]

don't you dare stop posting mama!

this wasn't heated..I promise!

its not heated until a moderator steps in and has to edit!

hmhmh thats happened only a few times. generally we all get along..and no one expects us all to have the same opinion. if that were so, you'd see marswolf endorsing glocks!

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

if that were so, you'd see marswolf endorsing glocks!

LMAO!!!!!!!!!

I wasn't heated in the least. And I honestly don't think anyone else was either. I think it was just different views from different angles.

[Guest Centennial]

Good info.

Personally, I don't believe any intelligent, informed person could favor restrictive gun control/confiscation legislation for law abiding citizens. That makes their intelligence, understanding, or motives questionable.

[PackinMama]

Don't worry guys, I like this place....think I will stick around....even though some of you gave me a hard time on this one! My grandfather-in-law came over yesterday and I got into a fairly heated debate about gun control with him and used the same info to support my side. He's a stubborn old coot though and he's always right no matter what (I'm sure you all have at least one of those in your family:))! Even though he has my 30/30 rifle loaded and ready at his place in case of trouble......he still believes that gun control would deter violent crime. He thinks if more people become legally armed, there will be a lot of them that use their guns illegally.....How stupid is that?!! Got to give him a break though I guess...he's 80 years old and hard headed as a rock:D.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Show your GFIL the Memphis Police Officer Killed thread. There's a perfect example of gun laws in action. Criminals don't obey the laws we already have.

[PackinMama]

Show your GFIL the Memphis Police Officer Killed thread. There's a perfect example of gun laws in action. Criminals don't obey the laws we already have.

Thanks Dixie, I will show him that when he comes over next Sunday....but I doubt it will do any good. Once he makes his mind up on something that's it...no changing it.

[towerclimber37]

Thanks Dixie, I will show him that when he comes over next Sunday....but I doubt it will do any good. Once he makes his mind up on something that's it...no changing it.

I have a family member that was like that...she was a hopolophobe. (fear of guns)..

I got my brother a shotgun and a pistol for christmas and his birthday (he went straight out and got a ccw)...

there have been 2 instances where she's been glad he was carrying.

If the old man truely believes in gun control..get your rifle back!

tell him that gun control starts just like that.

[PackinMama]

If the old man truely believes in gun control..get your rifle back!

tell him that gun control starts just like that.

Tower, that's funny, I thought the same exact thing myself......but, I don't want to cause trouble in the family.......my little boy loves to see his Pop Pop every Sunday. I am planning on doing some research to find some stories about people that were legally armed who used their weapon to defend themselves or others......ever here of John Lott? I need to find some of his stats to show the old man too.

[Guest jackdog]

Dixie this should help.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/archives/2004_02_01_archive.html

[PackinMama]

Thanks jackdog! That's some great info and will be good support for debating with anyone opposed to owning/carrying guns

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

mama, if your GFIL enjoys reading, maybe you could get this for him too. It's listed for as low as 9$ on eBay too. I think I'd enjoy reading that myself.

http://www.amazon.com/Thank-God-Had-Gun-Self-Defense/dp/0965678458/ref=pd_sim_b_title_9

[PackinMama]

I am going to get that book.....and maybe a couple others too. Thanks Dixie!

[Guest canynracer]

Show him this http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=680

is was posted here in another thread...I had to bookmark it...brought a tear I tell ya