Has anyone actually been caught in a "DMZ"?

[strickj]

TCA 39-17-1531(n)(1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

That says that you must show it to a cop when he demands. It does not say that a security guard can not ask to see it.

A security guard, a manager, an employee, whoever, can ask to see you HCP. Hell, they can ask to see your toenails if they wanted to.

[Glock30Owner]

How about the rights of a property owner to forbid HCP on their site?

They have that right, using either a sign posted and worded according to the law, or a security officer that asks a person to leave.

[Glock30Owner]

That says that you must show it to a cop when he demands. It does not say that a security guard can not ask to see it.

There also is not law that requires me to show my HCP to anyone other than a LEO.

[Guest RevScottie]

I find some of the comments on this forum a bit ironic. In one thread everyone is going off on the "white haired security guard" at the gun show for being on a power trip and here in a similar situation with an overzealous security guard the OP is chastised for not playing nice with him? Sometimes I think you guys just like to find someone or something to argue about

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm sorry that you think that reading a sign that could have the weight of law behind it in a literal manner is wrong.

And I'm sorry that when you got the confrontation you desired, the results didn't also meet your expectations. You'll find that if you look for both wording AND intent when it comes to such prohibitions, you're life will be much simpler and devoid of leo confrontations.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

They have that right, using either a sign posted and worded according to the law, or a security officer that asks a person to leave.

I wasn't aware that the new law required specific wording to be legal.

Regardless, you clearly understood the intent of the sign. You seemed to be looking for a fight.

[TGO David]

I did a little research. Mr. Glock30Owner is pretty much who I thought it was. He's banned. Again.

[Gun Smith]

I did a little research. Mr. Glock30Owner is pretty much who I thought it was. He's banned. Again.

GOOD!!!! Idiots like that hurt all of us.

[Oh Shoot]

GOOD!!!! Idiots like that hurt all of us.

Maybe, but methinks RevScottie had a decent point, too.

- OS

[mikegideon]

Speaking of banning, THIS needs to go into the banning hall of fame...

FL Permit in the News again, dude got shot 13x - Page 20

[Punisher84]

Maybe, but methinks RevScottie had a decent point, too.

- OS

I don't. There are alot of security people out there that are on power trips, I work with a few, but there are some guys that are just trying to do their job and protect their employer's interests. Alot of people just don't like being questioned by anyone, which is why you see the cop bashing threads here. Dude walked past a sign, was uncooperative with a security guard's request, and got the cops called. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter if he had to legally show a permit or not, it's the discretion of the property owner and his advocate as to who they let stay on his property.

EDIT: Let me also add that given the character of the assumed person behind this story, I'm not buying the security guard and the police did anything outside of the scope of their duties.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Punisher84

[Punisher84]

Speaking of banning, THIS needs to go into the banning hall of fame...

FL Permit in the News again, dude got shot 13x - Page 20

Geez he makes the rounds doesn't he? Pennsylvania? Really???

[Erik88]

Maybe, but methinks RevScottie had a decent point, too.

- OS

Couldn't agree more.

[Oh Shoot]

I don't. There are alot of security people out there that are on power trips, I work with a few, but there are some guys that are just trying to do their job and protect their employer's interests. Alot of people just don't like being questioned by anyone, which is why you see the cop bashing threads here. Dude walked past a sign, was uncooperative with a security guard's request, and got the cops called. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter if he had to legally show a permit or not, it's the discretion of the property owner and his advocate as to who they let stay on his property.

All well and good, but the property owner nor his hired minions have no right to commit illegal acts.

Admittedly, I can't see one in Lenny's post, but the Knoxville Expo guards certainly have. But the unnecessarily heavy handed and duplicitous nature of the two guards is similar enough.

BTW, if that really was Kwik, this seems to be a newly and totally fabricated tale, have never seen him mention it anywhere else.

- OS

[Punisher84]

All well and good, but the property owner nor his hired minions have no right to commit illegal acts.

Admittedly, I can't see one in Lenny's post, but the Knoxville Expo guards certainly have. But the unnecessarily heavy handed and duplicitous nature of the two guards is similar enough.

BTW, if that really was Kwik, this seems to be a newly and totally fabricated tale, have never seen him mention it anywhere else.

- OS

I don't fully remember the Knoxville story, but I know all too well some security guys can be real *******s. I edited my post about what I believe on the nature of the guard and the police.

See here's the issue, and someone else briefly mentioned it earlier. If you walk into where I work with a gun I spot, I'm going to stop you and ask you for a permit, if you show it to me we're going to work out a way to safely secure your weapon we're both happy with and you'll be on your way. If you don't, you'll be asked to leave. It's pretty simple. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but in this day and age people in slacks and polo shirts are shooting up churches, hospitals, and school board meetings and it's always a little nerve racking until you know you're dealing with a good guy. Too many people think just because they know their intentions that everyone else should and they shouldn't be bothered, unfortunately stepping outside and playing with others sometimes involves playing by another's rules.

[Oh Shoot]

I don't fully remember the Knoxville story, but I know all too well some security guys can be real *******s..

That was mainly my point, not so much that the gun carrier was "right".

Assuming we accept all the parts of the saga, had the guard not been such a douche, the gun carrier would not have had to go through all that crap.

- OS

[Guest RevScottie]

I don't. There are alot of security people out there that are on power trips, I work with a few, but there are some guys that are just trying to do their job and protect their employer's interests. Alot of people just don't like being questioned by anyone, which is why you see the cop bashing threads here. Dude walked past a sign, was uncooperative with a security guard's request, and got the cops called. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter if he had to legally show a permit or not, it's the discretion of the property owner and his advocate as to who they let stay on his property.

EDIT: Let me also add that given the character of the assumed person behind this story, I'm not buying the security guard and the police did anything outside of the scope of their duties.

What bothers me is this part of the reply "was uncooperative with a security guard's request, and got the cops called." As I see it he was under no obligation to show the security guard anything and even asked the guard if he wanted him to leave. Power tripping guard then takes things up a notch by calling the police for no reason other than he didn't like the guys attitude. That's assuming at this point and time that any of the story is even remotely factual

[mikegideon]

That was mainly my point, not so much that the gun carrier was "right".

Assuming we accept all the parts of the saga, had the guard not been such a douche, the gun carrier would not have had to go through all that crap.

- OS

...and if the gun carrier hadn't been such a douche, the security guard wouldn't have had the opportunity to outdouche him.

[Punisher84]

What bothers me is this part of the reply "was uncooperative with a security guard's request, and got the cops called." As I see it he was under no obligation to show the security guard anything and even asked the guard if he wanted him to leave. Power tripping guard then takes things up a notch by calling the police for no reason other than he didn't like the guys attitude. That's assuming at this point and time that any of the story is even remotely factual

If I ask you for your permit and you don't show it to me you're not cooperating with my request. Doesn't mean you're legally bound to, doesn't mean you're being a jerk, just means you're not cooperating with my request. It does mean that I then get to make a decision about where you go next. I don't know this guard's situation was he by himself? Armed/unarmed? As someone else mentioned he may have been threatened by the OP's demeanor. If it was Kwik I'm sure he was. I can't blame him for pretending everything was fine and calling PD for assistance. My department pretty much handles everything on our own, I call MPD to transport people we arrest, that's it. I have several other guys on my shifts, a lone guard doesn't have that luxury.

Like I said, people don't like to be questioned, so it's always "The guard on a power trip", "the cop with the attitude", etc. I stop probably 5-10 people a night to see what they are doing. Most aren't doing anything illegal, they just are doing something that arouses suspicion. I'm always polite and professional. Make me feel comfortable that you aren't breaking into cars, trying to blow something up, etc and you're on your way with a "sorry for holding you up." Don't make me feel all warm and fuzzy...we'll take it from there.

[Guest RevScottie]

"I'm always polite and professional."

I have absolutely no doubt that you are. If after a "misunderstanding" you said things were OK and then proceeded to call the police and three squad cars show up to confront me I would have a real problem with that. The security guard could have simply said I would feel more comfortable if you left at this time but he did not. In my opinion the security guard royally screwed the guy over because he had a bone to pick with him.

[Oh Shoot]

.... My department pretty much handles everything on our own, I call MPD to transport people we arrest, that's it. ....

At the risk of going totally OT, you have power of arrest, or just under same guise as any citizen, whatever that is exactly?

- OS

[Punisher84]

"I'm always polite and professional."

I have absolutely no doubt that you are. If after a "misunderstanding" you said things were OK and then proceeded to call the police and three squad cars show up to confront me I would have a real problem with that. The security guard could have simply said I would feel more comfortable if you left at this time but he did not. In my opinion the security guard royally screwed the guy over because he had a bone to pick with him.

Quite possibly. Like I said I guess I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here to the SG and PD because we all think this was Kwik, but now if several others here were telling the story in a similar way it might give me more pause to defend. If I look at it from the middle ground, I'd say the SG may have been scared to actually do his job and let the cops do it for him. I also have a problem with that.

[strickj]

"I'm always polite and professional."

I have absolutely no doubt that you are. If after a "misunderstanding" you said things were OK and then proceeded to call the police and three squad cars show up to confront me I would have a real problem with that. The security guard could have simply said I would feel more comfortable if you left at this time but he did not. In my opinion the security guard royally screwed the guy over because he had a bone to pick with him.

I would have done the exact same thing as the guard.

He chose to play it safe instead of risking a fight with an armed man

[Punisher84]

At the risk of going totally OT, you have power of arrest, or just under same guise as any citizen, whatever that is exactly?

- OS

We used to, long before I worked there, have some type of Special Commission through the Sheriff's Department, but now it's just under TN citizen's arrest law. I guess the biggest difference is that I work for a private hospital system and we are run as campus security departments and are trained and expected to perform a certain way. That's to say my employer wants us to be proactive and not just call MPD every time we have someone look at us funny. We do pretty much everything in house. Arrests, investigations,etc.

Here's the TCA:

40-7-109. Arrest by private person — Grounds. —

(a) A private person may arrest another:

(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;

(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or

(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed the felony.

( A private person who makes an arrest of another pursuant to the provisions of §§ 40-7-109 — 40-7-115 shall receive no arrest fee or compensation for the arrest.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Punisher84

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I don't know this guard's situation was he by himself? Armed/unarmed? As someone else mentioned he may have been threatened by the OP's demeanor. If it was Kwik I'm sure he was. I can't blame him for pretending everything was fine and calling PD for assistance. My department pretty much handles everything on our own, I call MPD to transport people we arrest, that's it. I have several other guys on my shifts, a lone guard doesn't have that luxury.

Exactly. Not having been there, perhaps the security guard was being a jerk, or not.

They don't pay security guards enough to be heros. After he retired about the fourth time at age 70, dear old workaholic dad did a security guard gig for awhile. I doubt if they expected him to get into wrestling matches or shootouts with nut-case young men for near minimum wage.

The guard sees the dude open-carrying in a posted establishment. The guard asks to see a carry license and receives a bad attitude from open-carry dude. "No you can't see my license. Do you want me to leave?"

OK, the guard has established that the feller is open carrying and that the feller appears uncooperative. There are plenty of nut-cases around, and possibly even a higher density of nutcases around hospitals and clinics. The guard doesn't know whether he is dealing with a common jerkwad or whether he has a psychotic mass-killer on his hands.

What happens if open-carry dude is a psychotic ready to explode and the guard says "yes please leave"? Does that set open-carry-dude off?

Or alternately, what happens if open-carry dude says, "Well thats tough. I'm staying whether you like it or not." What does the security guard do then? Get into a hassle with uncooperative open-carry dude about it?

It could be that saying, "No you can stay" and then calling the police might be the better part of valor under such circumstances.

If you are out on the street and some stranger comes up trying to pick a fight. From his demeanor you suspect he may be a danger to himself or others. Do you act polite, get out of the situation and call the cops? Or do you get into a peeing match and let things escalate?