Am I being too paranoid here?

[Guest aaron_wil]

I was wondering if anyone had plans to take preventative measures of a civil suit in the case of a self defense shooting?

For example, if I ever am in a situation where I had to take defensive measures, I have a (tentative) plan to remove my assets from my posession in order to proactively counter any civic suit that may entail. Am I being a bit more paranoid than I should be, or is there really nothing that I could do to prevent losing my assets in a civil trial?

[daddyo]

Why is it paranoid to be prepared?

[Kegger]

I may be way off the mark here, but isn't there some stipulation in the self-defense law that the aggressor can't sue if they get jacked up during the commision of the crime?

Please, feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong.

[Guest aaron_wil]

I may be way off the mark here, but isn't there some stipulation in the self-defense law that the aggressor can't sue if they get jacked up during the commision of the crime?

Please, feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong.

I am not sure, but I am sure it doesn't stop the family from suing in the event of the aggressor's death.

[Fallguy]

I may be way off the mark here, but isn't there some stipulation in the self-defense law that the aggressor can't sue if they get jacked up during the commision of the crime?

Please, feel free to set me straight if I'm wrong.

The law doesn't prevent them from suing. It just says if the shooting is ruled justified they can not collect anything and also that that must pay for your lawyer, lost time from work and any other expenses you incurred in defense of the suit. T.C.A. 39-11-622 (http://www.michie.com/tennessee)

So I may be naive, but my only preparation has been to only shoot in what is a clearly justifiable situation.

That being said, one definitely should be aware of the possible consequences (legal and civil) of using a firearm and if they are not prepared (whatever that means to them) to accept them, they should not own one.

Am I 100% prepared/protected if I use a firearm...maybe not, But I know I am not ready to accept the possible consequences if I did not have one!

[mikegideon]

I don't think you can get away with moving a bunch of assets before a civil suit. I hope one of our attorneys will comment.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I don't think you can get away with moving a bunch of assets before a civil suit. I hope one of our attorneys will comment.

I am not an attorney, but this is correct. The courts could and would unwind any asset transfers that appeared to be taken to shelter assets from being used to satisfy a judgement.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I am not sure, but I am sure it doesn't stop the family from suing in the event of the aggressor's death.

I can tell you from personal experience that is does not stop them from suing. TN judges, however, don't seem to sympathetic to criminals injured in the clear commission of a crime. Not only did I prevail in my civil suit, but my insurance company won a counter-suit for legal costs.

[NashvilleStage]

I don't think you can get away with moving a bunch of assets before a civil suit.

I think you're right. I'm not an attorney, but I've heard of bankruptcy cases where the judge forced the reversal of assets being moved out of the defendant's name when it was done in the immediate time frame of the suit. In other words, that plan probably won't work. The courts tend to see right through it.

Don't get me wrong, though. I think it's very wise & prudent to prepare for the aftermath of a self-defense shooting. A lot of people shrug off being prepared & repeat the mantra of "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". No offense, but I think it's the equivalent of carrying a firearm for self-defense, but never learning how to use it. They're sorely unprepared for the legal, relational, emotional, and financial aftermath.

For the legal-preparation side of things, I'd recommend reading up on Massad Ayoob's books, or even better yet, taking his MAG 20 (classroom only) or MAG 40 (classroom & firing range) class. He's the king of the legal defense side of things. Look up his name on youtube. There are some excerpts of an old class on there, as well as several interviews. It will be a great education & eye-opener.

Don't just hope that the law will save your butt, *know* what the law says & follow it. Don't inadvertently become the "bad guy" in a shooting because of ignorance of the law. Know how to stay far away from grey areas where the tables could get turned on you.

Also, sign up at the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. They have a network of lawyers who specialize in justifiable self-defense cases (they are a rare breed). They also provide the funds needed to pay them.

Financially, I've seen a few places that sell liability insurance which is written for acts of self-defense. It's usually pretty cheap considering the amount of coverage you get.

[Guest peacexxl]

Also, lawyers and badguys have heard of the interweb. By virtue of making this post, you have given them insight into your plans and they would certainly go digging deep into your life for any crumbs you might have stashed away. They would also probably use the fact that you planned ahead in this way to say that you intended to do harm to someone and that is why you were preparing.

I love an open forum but we should be careful what we put out there.

[mdmoseley]

Also there is the issue of taxation. if you moved alot of assets to a family member's name and it was more than 22k/yr they would have to pay inheritance tax. Simply changing it to your spouse wouldn't suffice either because ya'll are married and what is yours is hers.

[RobertNashville]

There is NOTHING you can do that will prevent you from being sued if someone feels you've "wronged" them and that includes moving assets (which really won't work) and even Tennessee law that is supposed to protect you when you are involved in a justified shooting. If you shoot someone, no matter how justified, you can simply expect to be sued. PERIOD.

There is also the issue of what can happen to you if you shoot someone with justification but a stray bullet that didn't hit the bad guy DOES hit an innocent bystander!

Now, as I understand the law here in Tennessee, you would likely prevail in most cases and would have an affirmative defense to such a suit (at least from the bad guy if he lives or the bad guy's family if he doesn't) but that doesn't mean you won't get sued and that doesn't mean you won't need an attorney to represent you (meaning you'll need some $$$ at least on the front end).

If you really want to protect yourself, I'd recommend a good umbrella liability policy which isn't a bad thing to have anytime just for good financial planning and that's especially true if you have assets to protect.

In addition to the umbrella policy, if you ever do shoot someone don't say a dam thing to the police except "I thought my life was in danger", until you've retained an attorney.

Edited December 8, 2010 by RobertNashville

[Guest Ggun]

It's called Fraudulent Concealment with a dose of Paranoia. Probably codified somewhere in AST-II manual. But, it may work for you. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

[Guest Ggun]

Also there is the issue of taxation. if you moved alot of assets to a family member's name and it was more than 22k/yr they would have to pay inheritance tax. Simply changing it to your spouse wouldn't suffice either because ya'll are married and what is yours is hers.

I've got a lot of stluff that is mine which is not my wife's. And, you have completely lost me on how the recepient of a gift would pay inheirtance tax.

[Guest mds3d]

First, in the state of TN there is no way to separate your property from a spouse. This shows up most often in divorce cases but can also be applied to civil suits.

Second, you can never be protected from a suit being brought against you. However if you have been judged justified in the shooting you should recieve a summary judgement in your favor if a suit is brought by the criminal or his family.

[Oh Shoot]

I've got a lot of stluff that is mine which is not my wife's. And, you have completely lost me on how the recepient of a gift would pay inheirtance tax.

Unless you have prenup, all husband/wife property jointly owned. Not even sure how effective a prenup is in TN, though since contract law is pretty strong here I guess it works?

Giving away inheritance before death is complicated, but done correctly, you can indeed give up to the life maximum exemption on inheritance tax over time, but no idea how much a year, or how it's figured and notated, since that max amount has varied every year for some time. I really don't know much about the inheritance stuff, was just roughly 'splained as such once to mom and I. For example, she had wanted to put house/car investments, etc in both our names, and her accountant explained why ABSOLUTELY NOT to do that.

See your friendly tax accountant.

Of course, it is just a small step from the state simply taking private property for it to tax inherited property period, which has already been taxed, and usually multiple times in multiple ways.

As far as plain gifting, you can give anyone x amount in a year, in cash or property, without their having to claim it as income. In 2010 it's $13K for an individual to give and double that for couple filing jointly, which is where the "22K" figure likely comes from that was mentioned. The givers do not of course get a tax break for the money given it's still earned income, even though they didn't keep it. Again, though, this is not "inheritance" but "gifting". Same rules whether you give to a family member, friend, or total stranger.

- OS

Edited December 9, 2010 by OhShoot

[7dogguy]

I was wondering if anyone had plans to take preventative measures of a civil suit in the case of a self defense shooting?

For example, if I ever am in a situation where I had to take defensive measures, I have a (tentative) plan to remove my assets from my posession in order to proactively counter any civic suit that may entail. Am I being a bit more paranoid than I should be, or is there really nothing that I could do to prevent losing my assets in a civil trial?

As OP have written, I understand the law suit would not prevail if you are fully justified and in compliance with TN law on use of deadly force. And I am not a lawyer, but took some advice from one and now have an "Umbrella" policy. You most likely can find one for about 200 bucks a year for around 2 million dollars of coverage. One provision is you might have to up your coverage on your car and home, as the Umbrella will kick in if/when those are exhausted. But a good Umbrella policy protects you from a wide range of issues - suggest you discuss with your insurance agent as to what it would cover - most will cover civil liability suits (like if your dog bites someone, even when your property is posted, etc - people just like to sue other people now days).

[NashvilleStage]

I can tell you from personal experience that is does not stop them from suing.

When did this happen?

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

When did this happen?

1996.

[JReedEsq]

First off, I prefer not to give legal advice in response to broad questions. It only increases the potential for error. An example would be the statement above that it is impossible to separate maritial assets from presonal property. That is the general rule but there are notable exceptions. That said, while an agressors family may sue you, Tennessee law should protect your assets if you've acted in reasonable self defense. Frankly I'd more concerned with someone being able to say, "look, he attempted to hide his assets because he planned to shoot someone."

[redstategunnut]

Transferring assets after an event in anticipation of litigation would be an exceedingly bad idea and ineffective anyway. If your shoot is a bad one, I doubt it will be an insurable event anyway, and you'll just wind up in two lawsuits: one with the "victim" and one with your own insurance company about whether they have to cover your dumb ass.

Worry more about the "before" and less about the "after" because it will really come down to whether your shoot was "good" or "bad." If it was bad, you're probably going to get prosecuted and sued and suffer the consequences regardless of your scheme. If your shoot was "good" then you won't face prosecution and you'll spend some coin defending a frivolous suit but that's one potential cost of carrying a gun and shooting someone. If you don't want to get sued, hunker down in your house, contact no one and do nothing. Otherwise, it can happen.

Even though Vanderbilt gave me a really expensive piece of parchment and the silly people at the state gave me permission to do so almost two decades ago, I'm not giving YOU legal advice, I'm just enjoying an early morning soliloquy. Have a nice day.

[Fallguy]

First off, I prefer not to give legal advice in response to broad questions. It only increases the potential for error. An example would be the statement above that it is impossible to separate maritial assets from presonal property. That is the general rule but there are notable exceptions. That said, while an agressors family may sue you, Tennessee law should protect your assets if you've acted in reasonable self defense. Frankly I'd more concerned with someone being able to say, "look, he attempted to hide his assets because he planned to shoot someone."

+1

Transferring assets after an event in anticipation of litigation would be an exceedingly bad idea and ineffective anyway. If your shoot is a bad one, I doubt it will be an insurable event anyway, and you'll just wind up in two lawsuits: one with the "victim" and one with your own insurance company about whether they have to cover your dumb ass.

Worry more about the "before" and less about the "after" because it will really come down to whether your shoot was "good" or "bad." If it was bad, you're probably going to get prosecuted and sued and suffer the consequences regardless of your scheme. If your shoot was "good" then you won't face prosecution and you'll spend some coin defending a frivolous suit but that's one potential cost of carrying a gun and shooting someone. If you don't want to get sued, hunker down in your house, contact no one and do nothing. Otherwise, it can happen.

Even though Vanderbilt gave me a really expensive piece of parchment and the silly people at the state gave me permission to do so almost two decades ago, I'm not giving YOU legal advice, I'm just enjoying an early morning soliloquy. Have a nice day.

....and there you have it....

[RobertNashville]

First off, I prefer not to give legal advice in response to broad questions. It only increases the potential for error. An example would be the statement above that it is impossible to separate maritial assets from presonal property. That is the general rule but there are notable exceptions. That said, while an agressors family may sue you, Tennessee law should protect your assets if you've acted in reasonable self defense. Frankly I'd more concerned with someone being able to say, "look, he attempted to hide his assets because he planned to shoot someone."

I understand that you don't like answering general questions but, in your "general" opinion, does Tennessee law protect a justified shooter from civil liability if a stray bullet injures or kills an innocent bystander?

For example, a person is defending himself from a violent home invasion, shoots and kills one or more of the bad guys but during the fight, a bullet kills a neighbor child sleeping in her room in her own home one house over...I understand that the bad guy's aren't entitled to damages if the shooting was justified but what about the family of the innocent child?

I guess where I'm coming from is that one thing drilled into me almost my whole life is that when you fire a weapon YOU are responsible for every bullet that leaves the barrel (hence one of the reasons why you must be sure of your target AND what's behind it!.

Edited December 9, 2010 by RobertNashville

[Fallguy]

I understand that you don't like answering general questions but, in your "general" opinion, does Tennessee law protect a justified shooter from civil liability if a stray bullet injures or kills an innocent bystander?

While I know this wasn't directed at me and I am not educated in this area, but it would seem fairly clear in the law the answer is no.

39-11-622(a)(1)( says you are immune from civil liability unless, "The force used by the person resulted in property damage to or the death or injury of an innocent bystander or other person against whom the force used was not justified."

http://www.michie.com/tennessee

[DaveTN]

The time to prepare for a shooting is prior to it.

I am confident that if I have to shoot someone my shooting will be justified in any state in this country. While I don’t pretend to know the laws in all 50 states I’m pretty sure that they all allow for the use of deadly force if a Prosecutor, Judge or jury determine the person I shot was trying to kill me.

I will never shoot someone to protect property, and can’t really see an unarmed person getting an altercation to the deadly force level.

I am trained to look beyond my target. I’m not going to put myself in a situation where I am going to shoot an innocent bystander.

Go through all the possible shooting scenarios you can think of. Have a solution that will both leave you alive and will not devastate you financially.

Have a plan in case you have to use deadly force. If I have a clean shoot I’m cooperating with investigators from the beginning. But that is my decision from having been a cop and responding to shootings. You need to make those decisions based on whatever you are ready to take responsibility for. If I think my shoot might be questionable I have an attorney that I can contact any hour of the day or night. Even though mine is in another state he can handle things if need be.

I’m not an attorney, but attorneys are Officers of the Court. I doubt any of them will be involved in hiding money or assets from the court.

Edited December 9, 2010 by DaveTN