My next home defense gun

[TGO David]

I figure if my edc will do the trick out of the house It'll definitely do the job on my turf

Eh... I carry a handgun during my daily walk because I can't carry my carbine.

Handgun rounds suck at stopping people. They are weak and underpowered. We compromise carrying them due to convenience and size. If I'm at home I'm rocking a rifle when something is going down. If my rifle isn't near me when the **** goes down, the handgun on me will be used to fight my way to my rifle.

Mike

This.

[Guest ab28]

We had a similar discussion in a thread sometime back. My biggest concern with an AR is the effective range if a couple of those rounds make it out of the house. No doubt it would be effective on a thug.

I had a friend of mine in Iraq mention that they had "stopping power" issues with the short barreled ARs. You lose a lot of velocity out of those cut down barrels. I saw issues with the regular length M4 barrel as well. Guys not going down after taking 2-3 rounds.

My HD gun is my carry gun, I just swap it for a larger mag at night.

[leroy]

Mike and David:_______

RE: This for home use.

...If I'm at home I'm rocking a rifle when something is going down. ...

What barrel length? What flash suppressor? What round?

Thanks,

Leroy

[TGO David]

I had a friend of mine in Iraq mention that they had "stopping power" issues with the short barreled ARs. You lose a lot of velocity out of those cut down barrels. I saw issues with the regular length M4 barrel as well. Guys not going down after taking 2-3 rounds.

I guarantee I'm getting more FPS out of my 10.5" Noveske braked AR than you're likely getting out of your handgun.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Completely agree about the weakness of a pistol caliber as a fight-stopper. However, everything is a compromise, even at home. A rifle delivers a lot more energy on target, but at a cost. They are longer and heavier than a handgun. They are more difficult to maneuver and retain in close quarters. They require MUCH more training to use effectively than a handgun. They are very difficult to use one handed. They are also difficult to store safely, especially for those of us with small children.

Most people buy a shotgun thinking it's easy to use. They load it up and put in the closet. The reality is that shotguns need a significant amount of training and practice to use correctly. Buckshot will penetrate interior walls. They share all the same issues with other long guns when moving in confined spaces.

In a HD scenario, I'm using my handgun to move to my kids, then the shotgun once I get them back to my fixed defense position. YMMV.

[Mike]

I had a friend of mine in Iraq mention that they had "stopping power" issues with the short barreled ARs. You lose a lot of velocity out of those cut down barrels. I saw issues with the regular length M4 barrel as well. Guys not going down after taking 2-3 rounds.

My HD gun is my carry gun, I just swap it for a larger mag at night.

"Stopping power" is bull****. If it took 2-3 rounds to put a dude down it's because you didn't shoot him in a critical area. You really have two options, shoot the brain or poke enough holes in his cardiovascular system to cause loss of consciousness. The human body is surprisingly resilient to damage. We are armored in those critical areas for a reason. The breastplate and skull are some of the thickest densest bones in our anatomy.

On the velocity note, you only lose a couple hundred feet per second with a 10.5" barrel. The difference in velocity is negligible at HD ranges and even at 150-200 yards is plenty to bury rounds deep enough to have lethal effects.

Mike and David:_______

RE: This for home use.

...If I'm at home I'm rocking a rifle when something is going down. ...

What barrel length? What flash suppressor? What round?

Thanks,

Leroy

I have an AK-74, standard length barrel, standard muzzle brake, Hornady 5.45x39 60gr V-Max. I keep a set of earpro next to the rifle. it's really f'n loud in enclosed spaces. If I have time to get them on great, if not, impaired hearing is better than not fighting for your life.

Mike

[leroy]

Thanks Mike.

Leroy

[mikegideon]

"Stopping power" is bull****. If it took 2-3 rounds to put a dude down it's because you didn't shoot him in a critical area. You really have two options, shoot the brain or poke enough holes in his cardiovascular system to cause loss of consciousness. The human body is surprisingly resilient to damage. We are armored in those critical areas for a reason. The breastplate and skull are some of the thickest densest bones in our anatomy.

Mike

That's what makes buck shot such an attractive option at home defense ranges. Don't know how soft body armor plays into that.

[Mike]

Buckshot is ineffective against soft armor.

Foster slugs are spotty as to penetrating soft armor. Most will not penetrate.

Brenneke slugs are quite effective at defeating soft armor. They are solid rather than hollow based like the fosters and are shaped like a wadcutter giving them very good penetration.

Mike

Edited December 6, 2010 by Mike

[MacGyver]

+1 on the carbine for home defense.

My pistol is intended to be used for fighting my way back to a better weapon.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Buckshot is ineffective against soft armor.

Foster slugs are spotty as to penetrating soft armor. Most will not penetrate.

Brenneke slugs are quite effective at defeating soft armor. They are solid rather than hollow based like the fosters and are shaped like a wadcutter giving them very good penetration.

Mike

I'd like to meet the man that can take a slug in the vest without effect. You might not kill him with the first shot, but you'll certainly change his attitude.

[Mike]

I didn't say he wouldn't feel it or that there wouldn't be damage due to the impact. I was only speaking of penetrating the armor.

Mike

[mikegideon]

I'd like to meet the man that can take a slug in the vest without effect. You might not kill him with the first shot, but you'll certainly change his attitude.

Yep. It's gonna leave a Mark. First time I've ever considered that a thug may be wearing armor. No problem... I always have loaded 30 round mags lying around. I can see a thug's reaction now, "OH ! Wrong house"

[Guest ab28]

Handgun rounds suck at stopping people. They are weak and underpowered. We compromise carrying them due to convenience and size. If I'm at home I'm rocking a rifle when something is going down. If my rifle isn't near me when the **** goes down, the handgun on me will be used to fight my way to my rifle.

Mike

That is why if I am using my pistol inside the house at close range, I am going for headshots. I live in a subdivision, and can't risk using a rifle for HD.

As far as the "stopping power" with rifles goes, the friend of mine was an SF medic with 2 tours in Iraq. I figured he probably knows how to shoot. He mentioned he was using an M4 with an 8.5" barrel. I was a medic as well, but not SF or anything. The couple of times I used my pistol I went for headshots, so I didn't have a problem with stopping people. We weren't really impressed with the M4 over there, it did the job, but basically poked holes in people. It doesn't tumble, as the rifles now have a different twist rate for more accuracy.

I am not close to being the only guy who spent time over there that had issues with the 5.56 anyways.

Edited December 6, 2010 by ab28

[mikegideon]

I didn't say he wouldn't feel it or that there wouldn't be damage due to the impact. I was only speaking of penetrating the armor.

Mike

No prob. You got me talked into the "Unfair Advantage"

[Guest ab28]

+1 on the carbine for home defense.

My pistol is intended to be used for fighting my way back to a better weapon.

You are the weapon, a pistol is only a tool. I can fight with whatever necessary, be it a Glock, M4, old revolver, or a single shot break action shotgun. Yes, a rifle is better than a pistol, but you aren't automatically outgunned if all you have is a pistol. Within 10-15 yards anyways, someone will be just as dead if I engage them with a rifle as a pistol. Longer ranges are obviously different.

The point is, fight to the best of your ability with what you have. Whatever you are most comfortable shooting with is what you should have. I switched to a Glock 19 from a 27 because the recoil on that pistol was too much for rapid followup shots. I can hit much better with a 9mm than anything else, so that is what I carry and use.

[Guest tnxdshooter]

Why not stay in the realm of reality for a while. It's a nice place to visit.

I was under the impression that with a tax stamp one could acquire a full auto tommy gun can they not? If so then it is reality.

Edited December 6, 2010 by tnxdshooter

[Guest tnxdshooter]

Why not use the tax stamp to get a supressor and then buy Voldemort's ak pistol. After all he does not need it anymore seeing as he has no carry permit now.

[JeffL]

I've got my XD(m) 9mm with a Surefire X300 by my bed at night most of the time. My AR with Surefire Scout light is propped up on my desk too. I'll go with whichever feels right at the moment.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

My impression when reading this thread is that alot depends on what or who you plan on engaging in your house. The carbine guys seem to be concerned they are going to face cold blooded killers in light body armor that may not go down with a single shot because they are so intent on completing their mission. The pistol guys think they will engage your run of the mill burglar who is just trying to grab some cash/property and will be taken down with anything that has some stopping power.

At the end of the day OP to me it comes down to your budget, personal preference, and the trade-off you are willing to make between stopping power and muzzle velocity for less chance of collateral damage.

[Mike]

The carbine guys seem to be concerned they are going to face cold blooded killers in light body armor that may not go down with a single shot because they are so intent on completing their mission.

If you watch video and read reports of home invasions. It is a reccurring theme that there are usually more than 3 people often times wearing armor. They hit fast and hard, coming into the home, killing everyone then looting the house.

They're the modern day Bartholomew Roberts.

Mike

Edited December 7, 2010 by Mike

[TGO David]

If you watch video and read reports of home invasions. It is a reccurring theme that there are usually more than 3 people often times wearing armor. They hit fast and hard, coming into the home, killing everyone then looting the house.

They're the modern day Bartholomew Roberts.

Mike

You know, you and I are on the same page. But frankly, I'm getting to where I'm cool with it if other people want to make fun and go through life ill-equipped or harboring silly notions of how simplistic and one-dimensional self defense encounters are. Because sooner or later the zombies are really going to overrun the world and these people are going to be food. And when that happens, I'd rather be up against a bunch of ill-equipped zombies than a bunch of zombies with good weapons.

[mikegideon]

You know, you and I are on the same page. But frankly, I'm getting to where I'm cool with it if other people want to make fun and go through life ill-equipped or harboring silly notions of how simplistic and one-dimensional self defense encounters are. Because sooner or later the zombies are really going to overrun the world and these people are going to be food. And when that happens, I'd rather be up against a bunch of ill-equipped zombies than a bunch of zombies with good weapons.

Zombies with weapons? THAT changes things, especially if they're wearing armor.

Seriously, if home invasions are going pro, I have no problem keeping an AR handy.

[Mike]

[Guest Revelator]

I'd like to know what percent of home invasions feature a team of well-armed/armored robbers who go in and kill everyone, as Mike describes. I don't think it's terribly high. It happens, I'm sure, but I'm not ready to call it an epidemic. I wonder if it happens more frequently with drug dealers killing other drug dealers. I think your typical suburban or rural home invaders are going to be like the two pieces of excrement in Connecticut, one of which just got a death sentence that'll take 20 years or more to carry out. But I don't know. You don't plan for averages, you plan for worst case. I've always been a pistol guy, though when I'm up I usually have the safe unlocked, Saiga 223 "on deck," 30-round magazine right next to it. I know that my house would not be a target for a body-armor-wearing team. Not that kind of house, not that kind of neighborhood. But when I get a bigger/nicer place I'll probably feel different. That'll be the time to get a suppressor, I think.