Gun Buster Signs

[steamnsteel]

Ever since we have been able to carry in the Nationla Parks I have done so legally regardless of the gun buster sign at trail heads and other areas, except for the proper buildings. While knocking around in the Smokeys today it occured to me that the gunbuster signs could be seen as a legal posting now that the TN. law allows the gunbuster sign as a legal posting. Am I reading to much into this?

What are the possibilities of getting the gunbuster sign off the books in the coming year? I am seeing those things alot now days and the places that were incorrectly posted under the old statute became legally posted when the law passed.

[Oh Shoot]

GB signs in national parks have no meaning for those with TN HCP, or for those from other states which are recognized by TN.

You carry there under a provision of federal law, not TN law.

- OS

[macville]

GB signs in national parks have no meaning for those with TN HCP, or for those from other states which are recognized by TN.

You carry there under a provision of federal law, not TN law.

Except, that the Federal law follows state law when it comes to carrying, IE you have to have a valid permit in that state, etc. It is a valid question to ask what the actual federal law says because I thought the federal law follows any part of state law that would apply (which is why we can have a loaded, but not chambered rifle in our cars in the park.) IT would be interesting to get the actual text to see if the gunbuster sign would apply at trail heads. Of course, how would that even apply even if it was a "legal" posting? Not saying it does, but it technically could be illegal considering how our state senators/reps seem to write vague laws.

[Oh Shoot]

...) IT would be interesting to get the actual text....

"Protecting the right of individuals To bear arms in units of the National Park System and the National Wildlife Refuge System.—

The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if—

(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and

(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located."

- OS

[steamnsteel]

Federal law following state law. This is where I see a problem with the GB sign, I have been walking right pass the signs not even thinking about the new law that has went into effect until today.

[Oh Shoot]

Federal law following state law. This is where I see a problem with the GB sign, I have been walking right pass the signs not even thinking about the new law that has went into effect until today.

You're over thinking it.

Those aren't state signs in National Parks.

You'll also see no carry signs in state parks (which ARE state signs), but with HCP you can ignore them, since they are made void by state statute.

The only no carry signs with any weight to otherwise legal carrier in National Parks are those on federal buildings, and apparently in some buildings that are run by a federal contractor within federal park land (like Mt. Leconte Lodge) and seem to be treated as "federal buildings".

- OS

Edited November 21, 2010 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

On National Park Carry Federal Law does not follow State law...at least not like that and not like the law was first purposed...

If you can carry on "main street" in a state you can carry in a National Park in that state. Never seen GB signs in a National Park anyway.

[Oh Shoot]

On National Park Carry Federal Law does not follow State law...at least not like that and not like the law was first purposed...

Well, WHO can carry, WHAT they can carry, and HOW they can carry in any given National Park is determined by the carry laws of that state, but all the other nuances aren't meaningful.

- OS

[bigwakes]

Why have the signs not been removed? Is it laziness or trying to tell people who can't legally carry to not ilegally carry in the park? I was at Henry Horton and seriously second guessing my understanding of the law because it's posted at all the camp sites.

[Fallguy]

Why have the signs not been removed? Is it laziness or trying to tell people who can't legally carry to not ilegally carry in the park? I was at Henry Horton and seriously second guessing my understanding of the law because it's posted at all the camp sites.

By law the signs have remained at state parks.

This was done because if the signs had to be removed or changed it would have added a fiscal note (cost money) to the bill and most likely have caused it to fail.

If/when sings are replaced due to normal wear and tear etc.... new signs do not have to included "No Firearms"

[bigwakes]

By law the signs have remained at state parks.

This was done because if the signs had to be removed or changed it would have added a fiscal note (cost money) to the bill and most likely have caused it to fail.

If/when sings are replaced due to normal wear and tear etc.... new signs do not have to included "No Firearms"

Makes sense.

[aquaman67]

I did a lot of hiking last week in the GSM, mainly waterfalls.

The only sign I ever saw was in the southern end of the park at Deep Creek. I don't think it was the Gun Buster sign, but rather a picture of things not allowed.

Now that I think of it, that trail is in NC.

I didn't see any other Gun Buster signs in the park or elsewhere.

[Oh Shoot]

...

Now that I think of it, that trail is in NC....

One can open carry in the NC part of the park without a permit.

- OS

[Refleks]

Sorry but to clarify, does that mean it's legal for a carry permit owner to carry in federal and state parks regardless of signage?

[Oh Shoot]

Sorry but to clarify, does that mean it's legal for a carry permit owner to carry in federal and state parks regardless of signage?

In TN, yes.

(except in Federal BUILDINGS, even if they are in National Parks).

- OS

[Fallguy]

Sorry but to clarify, does that mean it's legal for a carry permit owner to carry in federal and state parks regardless of signage?

You can carry in National Parks, but not in a Federal Buildings within the National Park. Federal buildings are supposed to be posted that they are such. Other than the signs on the buildings I have not seen signs at National Parks.

In TN anyone with a HCP or valid license/permit from another state can legally carry in a State Park regardless of any signs.

[steamnsteel]

I did a lot of hiking last week in the GSM, mainly waterfalls.

The only sign I ever saw was in the southern end of the park at Deep Creek. I don't think it was the Gun Buster sign, but rather a picture of things not allowed.

Now that I think of it, that trail is in NC.

I didn't see any other Gun Buster signs in the park or elsewhere.

I never have paid that much attention to those signs until I was driving down the mountain on Saturday and I saw one. I know that all of these signs show a handgun as not being allowed among other things but it seems to me that I have seen them with the gunbuster sign. I will pay more attention next trip into the park and verify if I am seeing what I thought I saw.

[JReedEsq]

You're over thinking it.

Those aren't state signs in National Parks.

You'll also see no carry signs in state parks (which ARE state signs), but with HCP you can ignore them, since they are made void by state statute.

The only no carry signs with any weight to otherwise legal carrier in National Parks are those on federal buildings, and apparently in some buildings that are run by a federal contractor within federal park land (like Mt. Leconte Lodge) and seem to be treated as "federal buildings".

- OS

+1; OS is right....They are no longer applicable under Federal law which supercedes state law. My only occasion to open carry is in the park and I even had a nice conversation with a ranger who didn't even mention my weapon. I've done a lot of hiking this year, and unfortunately there are still signs up at nearly every trailhead in the GSMNP. I'd like to see them come down because I don't want any misunderstandings with the ill-informed among us.

Edited November 23, 2010 by JReedEsq

[steamnsteel]

"I've done a lot of hiking this year, and unfortunately there are still signs up at nearly every trailhead in the GSMNP. I'd like to see them come down because I don't want any misunderstandings with the ill-informed among us. "

Thanks for the sign clarification JR, I carry open and concealed depending on attire worn or needed. I have walked by rangers and talked with rangers with not having any problems at all. My main concern is that someone could interpret the law incorrectly and then we will have a test case over these crazy signs.

[Refleks]

So Dunbar Cave would be legal since it's a state park? Out of curiosity, assuming I am stopped by one of the employees (which shouldn't happen if I'm concealed, but just for the sake of argument) what do I tell them to convince them that their signs are not applicable? Sorry for all the questions..

[Oh Shoot]

So Dunbar Cave would be legal since it's a state park?

Yes

Out of curiosity, assuming I am stopped by one of the employees (which shouldn't happen if I'm concealed, but just for the sake of argument) what do I tell them to convince them that their signs are not applicable? Sorry for all the questions..

Perhaps hand them a copy of the statute? 39-17-1311

With this part highlighted?:

( (1) The provisions of subsection (a) (no carry in parks) shall not apply to the following persons:

(H) Persons possessing a handgun, who are authorized to carry the handgun pursuant to § 39-17-1351, while within or on a public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof, except as otherwise provided in subsection (d);

- OS

[Guest NashvegasMatt]

wow this is getting confusing

[Fallguy]

I think most state park employees (at least the rangers) know the law...although guess you could find a rouge one by chance.

[Oh Shoot]

wow this is getting confusing

What's confusing?

You can carry in TN state parks, period.

You can carry in National Parks according to the normal carry regulations of the state in which the park resides. However, no carry in federal buildings in the parks, which are supposed to be posted.

The only thing relatively confusing about any kind of park carry in TN regards municipal ones.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

I think most state park employees (at least the rangers) know the law...although guess you could find a rouge one by chance.

I'd be wary of any male ranger wearing rouge, period.

To Refleks:

HCP carry rules are on TN State Park official site, too, at:

Tennessee State Parks: Policies

Exception 4: While State Parks' rules and regulations prohibit firearm possession and use, Public Chapter 428 of 2009 created an exception in state firearms law that allows individuals with a valid "carry permit" under TCA § 39-17-1351 to carry a handgun within the boundaries of all state parks. While this new law makes an exception for possession, it does not make exception to the use of a firearm. Discharging a weapon in non-designated areas of our parks is still an offense. If a permit holder fires a weapon in self-defense, the holder bears the burden of proof to avoid potential charges under "prohibited firearm use."

- OS