HCP and Alcohol

[mikegideon]

Sure we do.

It’s illegal. There is no BAC requirement. It goes in the natural order of progression… Cop, DA, Judge or Jury.

I haven’t seen anyone say that, but it is possible. If the gun and the ammo are separated chances are the cops wouldn’t mess with you. But there is no requirement that the gun be loaded. It’s the risk you take if you want to drink, drive, and have guns in the vehicle.

They might look a little silly popping you for possession of an unloaded weapon without getting you for DUI as well. Not that I want to be the one to test it.

[DaveTN]

Some times I drink a beer and mow my grass.

And you are subject to arrest for DUI if you are intoxicated.

[DaveTN]

They might look a little silly popping you for possession of an unloaded weapon without getting you for DUI as well. Not that I want to be the one to test it.

What are you going to do when they ask you to submit to a BAC test?

[mikegideon]

Gee did I say that......hold on, I'm checking......nope, sure didn't. I'm more worried about some cop losing all of his adult judgment and taking me to jail on a bunch of trumped up firearms charges, simply because I had a little alcohol in my system.

I hear ya. if all there dumbass laws were around when I was younger, I would have just married a lawyer.

[mikegideon]

What are you going to do when they ask you to submit to a BAC test?

My part of this discussion is based on being under the limit. I would blow that sucker up.

[mikegideon]

And you are subject to arrest for DUI if you are intoxicated.

I can see Andy now. "Barney..."

[DaveTN]

My part of this discussion is based on being under the limit. I would blow that sucker up.

How do you know if you are under the limit? Have you had a BAC test when you were drinking?

If you blow…. And you are below a .08 you are okay on the DUI, but if you are a .04 (The generally accepted level that impairment begins… think truck driver limits.) you could have a problem.

[DaveTN]

I can see Andy now. "Barney..."

WTF is that suppose to mean? I didn’t make the laws in this state; I just try to know what they are. Are we going to reduce this down to name calling because you don’t know the laws?

[Erik88]

Some of the responses on here really surprise me. I'm used to our normal trolls but it seems a few new ones have emerged. I don't see what the big deal is. As others have said, the guys is grown man and it sounds like he practically nursed the beers for 5 hours while enjoying a day of shooting.

He was probably more cautious than some of the "sober" people I have seen at the range who have no idea what the rules of safe gun handling are.

[mikegideon]

WTF is that suppose to mean? I didn’t make the laws in this state; I just try to know what they are. Are we going to reduce this down to name calling because you don’t know the laws?

I'm not calling you names. You never said what YOU would do. Chill out. I was agreeing with you... yes, there is a Barney or two out there. I would suggest a beer, but you can go to prison for that.

[DaveTN]

Some of the responses on here really surprise me. I'm used to our normal trolls but it seems a few new ones have emerged.

You are one of the newest members here. Who are the new trolls you speak of?

I don't see what the big deal is.

And therein lies the problem.

I read his post as simply saying “Do not judge me, just discuss the law.â€

That is what some of us are doing.

It's illegal. Do you have something to add to that?

He was probably more cautious than some of the "sober" people I have seen at the range who have no idea what the rules of safe gun handling are.

Really? What would make you say something like that; do you know the OP?

[Erik88]

Dave, why are you so defensive?

[DaveTN]

Dave, why are you so defensive?

Because we lost the ability to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol because of this mindset that drinking while you are carrying is okay.

I’m just trying to have a legal discussion without it turning into bash fest between those that think they should be able to drink and drive or carry and gun, and those that don’t.

We had a carry into restaurant bill that would have passed and we would have been able to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol today. But no… we had to have those that think they should be able to go into bars, and even those that think they should be able to drink get involved. That was never the intent.

The only thing I ever remember Bredesen saying that I agreed with was when he said “Allowing guns in bars defies common sense.â€

As someone who has been the responding Officer to many calls of people with guns in bars and people that were drunk and handling guns; I find the nonsense that drunks don’t shot people in bars ridiculous.

I do support being able to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol if you are not drinking. I do not support carrying in bars and I believe that if you are drinking while carry your permit should be revoked; no BAC testing or limit required, only evidence that you were drinking.

[Guest waldo]

Yes it is against the law to be under the influence and carry a handgun. There is no .08 requirement.

.08 is a legal presumption of being too impaired to drive.

Thanks, that's what I was wanting to know.

[mikegideon]

Because we lost the ability to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol because of this mindset that drinking while you are carrying is okay.

I’m just trying to have a legal discussion without it turning into bash fest between those that think they should be able to drink and drive or carry and gun, and those that don’t.

We had a carry into restaurant bill that would have passed and we would have been able to carry in restaurants that serve alcohol today. But no… we had to have those that think they should be able to go into bars, and even those that think they should be able to drink get involved. That was never the intent.

The only thing I ever remember Bredesen saying that I agreed with was when he said “Allowing guns in bars defies common sense.”

As someone who has been the responding Officer to many calls of people with guns in bars and people that were drunk and handling guns; I find the nonsense that drunks don’t shot people in bars ridiculous.

I do support being able to carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol if you are not drinking. I do not support carrying in bars and I believe that if you are drinking while carry your permit should be revoked; no BAC testing or limit required, only evidence that you were drinking.

I know several people that hang out in bars, and never touch a drop. This discussion could go on forever. I don't think anybody has suggested going into a bar armed and knocking out a 12 pack. The law is what it is... gray.

[DaveTN]

I know several people that hang out in bars, and never touch a drop.

And I know a man that was armed while drinking in a bar and then shot two Police Officers that I worked with while holding his Grandson as a shield. What does either of our stories have to do with the question at hand?

We aren’t talking about people that haven’t had anything to drink are we?

The law is what it is... gray.

The law is only gray to you because you want to argue that you are not impaired. The law does not say you have to be impaired. It says “it is an offense for person to possess a handgun while under the influence of alcohol or any controlled substance.†The intent of the law is crystal clear.

If you want to go into court and argue that you were not under the influence enough to affect your judgment or handling of a handgun you are certainly free to do that. I would think it would be pretty easy for a Prosecutor to knock that pitch out of the park.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Well Dave you did make it sound like you were saying guns shouldnt be allowed in bars period without making the caveat that was just for drinking parties. However I agree with you on the position that people shouldnt be allowed to drink a drop while carrying.

[Guest tnxdshooter]

+1000

It always cracks me up when this kind of question comes up...most don't answer the question....they just put on their "holier than thou" hats and act like they've never done it.

I have never done it.

[DaveTN]

Well Dave you did make it sound like you were saying guns shouldnt be allowed in bars period without making the caveat that was just for drinking parties. However I agree with you on the position that people shouldnt be allowed to drink a drop while carrying.

I have never said that. I support allowing guns where liquor is served as long as drinking is not allowed, and a violation results in revocation of HCP. I’m not interested in waiting until someone is legally impaired for it to be a violation of law.

I also stand by what I said; it is illegal to carry and drink. That was the question from the OP.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Well I think the comment that you agreed with Bredeson that allowing guns in bars defied common sense is what caused confusion. I guess what you really meant is that allowing people to drink at all while carrying defies common sense. The second proposition I fully support.

[mikegideon]

never mind

[Oh Shoot]

...I support allowing guns where liquor is served as long as drinking is not allowed, and a violation results in revocation of HCP. ...

Umm, that IS the law currently.

I also stand by what I said; it is illegal to carry and drink...

I certainly am not arguing that anyone logically SHOULD drink and carry, but the statute simply does not say that -- the two drinking situations in question are quite distinct, one gives zero leeway for consumption and the other is left to LEO/court discretion.

This is just one of the many dumb ass inconsistencies in TCA weapons code.

A dead drunk non-HCP holder can be convicted for illegal possession of a weapon AND possession while intoxicated, and still get an HCP; while an HCP holder can have one sip of a drink in a bar and be fined/jailed AND lose his permit.

- OS

[DaveTN]

I certainly am not arguing that anyone logically SHOULD drink and carry, but the statute simply does not say that -- the two drinking situations in question are quite distinct, one gives zero leeway for consumption and the other is left to LEO/court discretion.

This is just one of the many dumb ass inconsistencies in TCA weapons code.

When I first became a cop I had discretion on all misdemeanors. While I was there I saw our discretion taken away on DUI and Domestic Violence. Is that not pretty much the same it is here?

A cop can find a gun on a person carrying without a permit and decide to let them go; that doesn’t make it legal, a grey area or inconsistent.

A dead drunk non-HCP holder can be convicted for illegal possession of a weapon AND possession while intoxicated, and still get an HCP; while an HCP holder can have one sip of a drink in a bar and be fined/jailed AND lose his permit.

If that is true; it is not right.

[Oh Shoot]

When I first became a cop I had discretion on all misdemeanors. While I was there I saw our discretion taken away on DUI and Domestic Violence. Is that not pretty much the same it is here?[/font]

Just pointing out that there are two distinctly different situations. In one, the person only need to have one sip of alcohol to be subject to arrest (which is pretty much a solid standard for the arrest), and in the other, the person must be "under the influence", which is not nearly as clear cut. Yes, of course a LEO can let most any infraction slide, I don't understand how that's relevant in this discussion.

If that is true; it is not right.

... I didn’t make the laws in this state; I just try to know what they are. Are we going to reduce this down to name calling because you don’t know the laws?

Of course it's true, you need only read the statutes and compare.

A non-HCP holder cannot be charged with carrying past a sign either. So whatever other charges he may face, that saves him $500 right off the bat.

AND, he can still get an HCP, where the statutes also say that an HCP holder who carries past a sign has his suspended or revoked.

Another case of idiotic disparity in punishment. The good guys have more to lose than the bad guys.

- OS

[Guest mds3d]

For the record...

Someone mentioned being in danger of DUI while mowing. I have yet to find any proof this is true.

Second, DUI in tennessee is defined in TCA 55-10-401.

(a) It is unlawful for any person to drive....while:

(2) The alcohol concentration in the person's blood or breath is eight-hundredths of one percent (.08 %) or more.

If someone else can find a specific TCA entry that allows for the Charge of DUI with less than .08% BAC, please enlighten us.

I could not find any TCA entry or Case Law that defines "Under the Influence" as it relates to Firearms. However, I would wager that the first time someone is charged under that provision that actually does have a lower BAC, you can bet the lawyer will bring it up (and then we will have our case law).

-Also, The average healthy adult metabolizes 15mL of alcohol per hour. That means that if you chug 1 12oz beer, a little more than an hour later your BAC will be nearly undetectable.

BTW I am not arguing either way. I just thought any further discussion should be made in light of some stated facts.