Teacher carry of a handgun in a car parked on school property?

[Fallguy]

It isn't a school official, usually k-9 cops that search periodically every month or two, had some friends get in trouble because they came to school right after hunting so they had their deer rifle in their car.

A dog hitting on a car gives a LEO PC to search....BIG difference than school officials searching a car for no reasons.

A K-9 sniff isn't really a search in that sense, so yes dogs can sniff about anything, anywhere.

As long as your friends didn't have an intent to go armed and weren't students they shouldn't have had a problem.

But if my kids went to a school were this sort of thing went on routinely or I worked there, guess I would be a bit more careful of things.

[Mdunntn]

If the administrator also wants a persons car search she will ask the school police officers to do it. I was driving my dads truck one day and I guess someone told them there were cigarettes in it. They went and brought me down to the parking lot and made me unlock the door. Nothing ever came of it because it was my dads truck but other students had been suspended and expelled for things like this. I knew a girl who had gotten expelled for having an empty bong in her car. This was all around 2-3 years ago at Carter High school.

[Fallguy]

If the administrator also wants a persons car search she will ask the school police officers to do it. I was driving my dads truck one day and I guess someone told them there were cigarettes in it. They went and brought me down to the parking lot and made me unlock the door. Nothing ever came of it because it was my dads truck but other students had been suspended and expelled for things like this. I knew a girl who had gotten expelled for having an empty bong in her car. This was all around 2-3 years ago at Carter High school.

Are you a student? If so...then Yes, it seems searchers of you, your car, your possessions by school officials or LEOs have been allowed.

I thought we were mainly talking about non-student adults....

[Mdunntn]

Are you a student? If so...then Yes, it seems searchers of you, your car, your possessions by school officials or LEOs have been allowed.

I thought we were mainly talking about non-student adults....

I'm just saying some examples and the fact we were told over and over any person student or adult or whatever car can be searched the minute it's parked on school property. I'm not a student now but just telling about some of my experiences when I was.

[JayC]

If the administrator also wants a persons car search she will ask the school police officers to do it. I was driving my dads truck one day and I guess someone told them there were cigarettes in it. They went and brought me down to the parking lot and made me unlock the door. Nothing ever came of it because it was my dads truck but other students had been suspended and expelled for things like this. I knew a girl who had gotten expelled for having an empty bong in her car. This was all around 2-3 years ago at Carter High school.

Let me get this straight... they called you down to the car and asked you to unlock it so they could search it? And you unlocked the car and therefore consented to the search... That is a common method for police officers to get consent to search a vehicle, lifting the requirement they have RAS/PC for the search.

Since they were searching for tobacco products, and that is a "civil offense" I'm not even sure they could search a vehicle without a warrant to begin with even if they knew for a fact the contraband was in the vehicle (I'd be curious to hear from one of the lawyers on the forum) because it's not a crime.

In all likelihood if you had declined the search, they wouldn't have forced the issue.

But, all of this is mute, as you're describing activities directed towards MINORS on school property, unfortunately SCOTUS has ruled that minor students give up many of their constitutional rights when at school.... but that has no bearing on non-student adults, unless somebody can cite a law that says different, non-law enforcement officers do not have the right to search you vehicle without your consent, if they break into your vehicle they have committed a crime... law enforcement officers are generally prohibited from breaking into a vehicle unless certain well defined conditions are met as well... this doesn't change from being parked in the lot of Walmart vs a school parking lot.

Mdunntn, it sounds like you're a fairly recent graduate from the public prison system... err I mean public school system... there is a reason why they don't teach constitutional rights in school anymore... Hopefully you'll never be treated like that again in your life, but don't think just because you had to submit to those types of rules that grown adults must do so for the rest of their lives.

[Fallguy]

I'm just saying some examples and the fact we were told over and over any person student or adult or whatever car can be searched the minute it's parked on school property. I'm not a student now but just telling about some of my experiences when I was.

Being told something doesn't make it fact or the law.

Students are treated differently than non-student adults so comparing the two aren't always going to mean the same thing would happen in both cases.

[JayC]

I'm just saying some examples and the fact we were told over and over any person student or adult or whatever car can be searched the minute it's parked on school property. I'm not a student now but just telling about some of my experiences when I was.

News flash, they tell you this so you'll consent to the search... not because it's true

[Mdunntn]

Let me get this straight... they called you down to the car and asked you to unlock it so they could search it? And you unlocked the car and therefore consented to the search... That is a common method for police officers to get consent to search a vehicle, lifting the requirement they have RAS/PC for the search.

Since they were searching for tobacco products, and that is a "civil offense" I'm not even sure they could search a vehicle without a warrant to begin with even if they knew for a fact the contraband was in the vehicle (I'd be curious to hear from one of the lawyers on the forum) because it's not a crime.

In all likelihood if you had declined the search, they wouldn't have forced the issue.

But, all of this is mute, as you're describing activities directed towards MINORS on school property, unfortunately SCOTUS has ruled that minor students give up many of their constitutional rights when at school.... but that has no bearing on non-student adults, unless somebody can cite a law that says different, non-law enforcement officers do not have the right to search you vehicle without your consent, if they break into your vehicle they have committed a crime... law enforcement officers are generally prohibited from breaking into a vehicle unless certain well defined conditions are met as well... this doesn't change from being parked in the lot of Walmart vs a school parking lot.

Mdunntn, it sounds like you're a fairly recent graduate from the public prison system... err I mean public school system... there is a reason why they don't teach constitutional rights in school anymore... Hopefully you'll never be treated like that again in your life, but don't think just because you had to submit to those types of rules that grown adults must do so for the rest of their lives.

If any student refused they would be suspended, and the police at our school were actual Knox county police officers. They might have been breaking laws and such but that is just how they operated and never got in trouble. They said anyone minor or adult student or non student was subject to a search. I graduated in 08 so I've been out for awhile, but I agree with you about the prison part we had to deal with bs like this all the time. Lets just say be careful on school property your rights might be infringed upon.

[Fallguy]

News flash, they tell you this so you'll consent to the search... not because it's true

DING..DING...DING...DING... Winner!!

[Mdunntn]

DING..DING...DING...DING... Winner!!

Well if so doesn't that give you such new respect for Knox county police officers..

[JayC]

If any student refused they would be suspended, and the police at our school were actual Knox county police officers. They might have been breaking laws and such but that is just how they operated and never got in trouble. They said anyone minor or adult student or non student was subject to a search. I graduated in 08 so I've been out for awhile, but I agree with you about the prison part we had to deal with bs like this all the time. Lets just say be careful on school property your rights might be infringed upon.

I think you just hit the nail on the head... why would they threaten a suspension for a search they could do without your permission? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count This is a perfect example of whats wrong with our public school system, it teaching future adults that they must submit to the government even when they're not lawfully required to do so.

I'm not saying the school police officers violated the law... police officers are allowed to trick people into giving them consent to search, many departments around the country receive special training on how best to get this consent... it's part of their job to try and keep contraband away from children.

That doesn't mean they can search your vehicle without RAS/PC that a crime has been or is about to be committed. I'm guessing in the 3 or 4 years you were at school nobody refused consent to these searches...

Truth is, the school administration could do the exact same thing to an adult, "consent to the search or you're fired"... it's a valid threat, but in many cases it's a lot better to just get fired, than to get caught with a firearm, charged with a crime, and get fired too.

[Fallguy]

Well if so doesn't that give you such new respect for Knox county police officers..

Well again this really didn't apply when you were a student, but they have got you thinking even now they can for any reason.

I have seen LEOs use "verbal judo" all the time. LEOs ask all the time, "Do you mind if a search you/your car etc..." So many people think they can't say Now. I rode with my brother one night...saw him ask this gal 4-5 times, she never said Yes...ended up she drove off. No before Dave chimes in, sometimes when they ask they already have PC, they just want to see your reaction.

I don't care if people "knowingly" and "willingly" consent to something. But it is up to the person to be educated not for the LEOs to tell them.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Fallguy
grammar

[Mdunntn]

Well again this really didn't apply when you were a student, but they have got you thinking even now they can for any reason.

I have seen LEOs use "verbal judo" all the time. LEOs ask all the time, "Do you mind if a search you/your car etc..." So many people think they can't say No. I rode with my brother one night...saw him ask this gal 4-5 times, she never said Yes...ended up she drove off. No before Dave chimes in, sometimes when they ask they already have PC, they just want to see your reaction.

I don't care if people "knowingly" and "willingly" consent to something. But it is up to the person to be educated not for the LEOs to tell them.

Dont get me wrong I have a friend who is a Knox county police officer but the guy I'm talking about did this frequently and it's not very nice feeling knowing you were flat out lied to. It basically comply or we will find out a way to get your keys anyway.

[Guest bnoland]

You can say no but the other thing you have to understand is even if you don't let them in and they don't find anything against their policy they may still fire you if they think you do. TN is a free labor state which means they can fire yo for any or NO reason what so ever. Will you draw unemployment? Maybe but that is hardly enough to live from not to mention if they have some kind of reason (insubordination for not complying with policy by refusing to allow a search) you won't get anything at all. You may sue and get your job back but you are still out of a job for that time and would you really want to come back to work somewhere that put you thru all of that just because you wanted to use your right to bear arms?

Could someone get in trouble with their employer for doing something they specifically say they aren't allowed to do and that there is a state law they may prohibit as well? Absolutely

Edited November 23, 2010 by bnoland

[Fallguy]

bnoland...you're right...

I got a little off-topic and got to talking in general and not so much on the OPs specifc topic.

[Oh Shoot]

It is "unlawful possession of a weapon" to carry a weapon with the intent to go armed with out a hcp so it is obviously illegal to carry a weapon on school grounds or anywhere for that matter without one. ....

Gun does not have to be carried. "Possess or carry".

Again, I addressed this: 39-17-1309 is a different charge than 39-17-1307.

You could be charged with both on school property. Off school property, only 39-17-1307.

But enough, main theme is for "teachers", and unless they change the law to allow it, employees (and staff) are subject to termination, regardless of any criminal charges, which are still highly debatable .

- OS

[Guest bnoland]

Gun does not have to be carried. "Possess or carry".

Again, I addressed this: 39-17-1309 is a different charge than 39-17-1307.

You could be charged with both on school property. Off school property, only 39-17-1307.

But enough, main theme is for "teachers", and unless they change the law to allow it, employees (and staff) are subject to termination, regardless of any criminal charges, which are still highly debatable .

- OS

Lol, yes to have it in your possesion with the intent to go armed is illegal without the hcp. I figured that went without saying as well but I guess for some it needs to be brought to an elementary level.

[Oh Shoot]

Lol, yes to have it in your possesion with the intent to go armed is illegal without the hcp. I figured that went without saying as well but I guess for some it needs to be brought to an elementary level.

Snide drollery sans art and wit noted.

You seem to have an ever evolving definition for "going armed", especially as regards this statute on school firearm possession, and the relative merit of possessing an HCP while doing it, which is quite intuitive since the statute makes no mention of HCP at all.

So I'm certainly interested in your take on how one might possess the same knife, in one case with "intent to go armed" and in another with no such intent, in the context of 39-17-1309, since there is no permit for knife carry, and the knife is always "loaded"?

- OS

[Guest bnoland]

I have yet to see my definition of "going armed" change. What changed is the circumstances in which what charges can be brought against you on school grounds. If you are in a vehicle go armed is different than if you are out of it. In a vehicle beinng armed (with a firearm) is the weapon being within your reach and the weapon is ready to be used or could be easily made ready. Example, a load mag sitting with it. You can't really have a gun ready to be use and you not be carrying it somehow if you are walking around.

As for a knife with the intent to go armed, I am not sure how that is defined because I don't run into that very often so I have yet to have to deal with it. While I am having fun with our smart ass contest and your wanting to quiz my every statement I think we have answered the original question so I am done with it.

Snide drollery sans art and wit noted.

You seem to have an ever evolving definition for "going armed", especially as regards this statute on school firearm possession, and the relative merit of possessing an HCP while doing it, which is quite intuitive since the statute makes no mention of HCP at all.

So I'm certainly interested in your take on how one might possess the same knife, in one case with "intent to go armed" and in another with no such intent, in the context of 39-17-1309, since there is no permit for knife carry, and the knife is always "loaded"?

- OS

[Guest Thebs]

Ok, my wife is in the process of a HCP at this time. She has a full time position at a community college, and is also a part time student (two nights a week).

Is she legally able to leave her handgun in the car the days she is not in class?

By the way this is a VERY informative site and keep up the good work.

[Oh Shoot]

Ok, my wife is in the process of a HCP at this time. She has a full time position at a community college, and is also a part time student (two nights a week).

Is she legally able to leave her handgun in the car the days she is not in class?

By the way this is a VERY informative site and keep up the good work.

Storage of gun in car on campus by a non-student adult is not dependent on having an HCP. Thus we assume the intention is that the gun be unloaded, since that is the only way a non-HCP holder can possess a gun in vehicle.

Note of course, that should for some reason the car be searched, she could be fired and/or expelled whether she were criminally charged or not. (I'm assuming the college has a no-firearms policy for both staff and students like all I have ever heard of in TN).

As far as whether your wife is a student all the time or only when she is attending classes, I would think she is a student for any period in which she is enrolled.*

*This opinion on yet another of the many gray areas of TCA weapon law is worth exactly what you have paid for it.

- OS

[peejman]

There's an easy solution to this.... Park somewhere else.

My employer (like many) has the "no weapons" clause as a condition of employment. If, for example, I intend to go to the range after work and don't feel like wasting 30 minutes driving back home to get my stuff, I bring it with me and park at the business next door. My vehicle isn't on company property so my employer can't search it. The owner of the property its parked on isn't my employer and can't fire me. All they can do is ask me to move it, or have it towed. I'm not aware of a vehicle ever being searched anywhere I've worked. I do recall one vehicle being towed, but it had been sitting in the lot for over a month.

Another point to consider is the liability of having it in the car. Say an unsavory student (or employee) finds out she has a gun in her car. So the person breaks into her car, steals it, and shoots someone on the property. While she may not be legally liable since the gun was stolen, she'll most certainly lose her job and have civil suits to deal with.

[Guest don_m]

Storage of gun in car on campus by a non-student adult is not dependent on having an HCP.

According to Tennessee Law you are correct. But you also need to consider Federal law, though there is also an exception for unloaded and in a locked container.

18 U.S.C. § 922

(2)(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to

possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects

interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual

knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

( Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a

firearm -

(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do

so by the State in which the school zone is located or a

political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or

political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains

such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or

political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified

under law to receive the license;

(iii) that is -

(I) not loaded; and

(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is

on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school

in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into

between a school in the school zone and the individual or an

employer of the individual;

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official

capacity; or

(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while

traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to

public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school

premises is authorized by school authorities.

[Q-tip]

Federal law doesn't affect carry or storage on college campuses.

She might also consider storing it (unloaded) in a lock box under the seat. She might be fired if she refuses to give the key or combination if they decided to search it or something, but then again, I might completely forget what the combination was or have left my key at home if they asked to search it.

Parking off campus is often a problem in many neighborhoods (like the one surrounding my university) where break-ins are a common occurrence, so that may not be a viable solution in her case.

[Oh Shoot]

According to Tennessee Law you are correct. But you also need to consider Federal law, ...

No, you don't.

- OS