Teacher carry of a handgun in a car parked on school property?

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

I have a few questions that I hope havent been asked too many times before on here I have read through some of the old threads but as with any legal issue it seems to be ever changing with new case holdings and AG opinions.

Ok so now that intro is done the reason I am asking is because my GF is planning to be a elementary school teacher. I have talked to her about getting a permit but she says she doesnt see much of a point if she couldnt have it in her car to and from school as most any other time she is out she would be with me or her dad who has a carry permit also.

Questions:

1. Have we received anymore guidance recently about the non-student vehicle operator provision and how it relates to teachers. I had seen in previous threads that this was an unresolved and widely debated issue on whether the teacher could leave the gun in the vehicle as long as it wasnt touched while on school property?

2. Would there be any difference if the gun was unloaded with the ammo and gun stored separately (like when being transported by a non-HCPholder)?

Thanks in advance.

[Oh Shoot]

It is legal under TN statute for a non-student adult to have firearm in car.

Whether the firearm can be loaded or not is of some debate, as the section is under the "not going armed" paragraph.

However, the school system itself is pretty much guaranteed to have a strict no weapons charge, and has the legal ability to search vehicles on school property, and can terminate employment for it.

So:

- It's legal to posses a handgun in car on school property for a non-student adult. HCP not required. Loaded or not is unclear.

- It's legal for the school to fire you for doing it.

--------------

Full school weapons statute at:

Michie's Legal Resources

Pertinent passage:

"© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

- OS

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Thanks for that info OS. Yeah in TN employers can do about whatever they want. But the risk of losing your job and the risk of a criminal conviction do bear a different weight

The "no HCP required comment" is referring to an unloaded and separately stored situation right?

[Oh Shoot]

Thanks for that info OS. Yeah in TN employers can do about whatever they want. But the risk of losing your job and the risk of a criminal conviction do bear a different weight

The "no HCP required comment" is referring to an unloaded and separately stored situation right?

In this day and time, I think many folks would rather face a misdemeanor than lose their jobs!

The statute is all we have to go on.

It says nothing about HCP, loaded or unloaded.

IANAL, but not sure it matters much, as have seen lawyers disagree on this matter.

Some people here have claimed that since there are two identical paragraphs in the statute:

- (the first one says "with intent to go armed") and is a felony, and gives no permission to possess at all

- and the second one (which I quoted), does not say "intent to go armed", and is a misdemeanor, and doesn't mention HCP, would suggest that the gun referred to must be unloaded. Or, since it does NOT mention status of the weapon, perhaps loaded/unloaded is not an issue.

Like much of TN weapons law, it's quite gray.

FallGuy will probably chime in later, he's among our best Non Lawyers -- I know he's seen all sides of this debated over and over, see what his synopsis is.

Read the entire statute. What do YOU think?

- OS

Edited November 18, 2010 by OhShoot

[JayC]

Since when did schools get the ability to search vehicles of non-student adults without PC or RAS in TN?

It is legal under TN statute for a non-student adult to have firearm in car.

Whether the firearm can be loaded or not is of some debate, as the section is under the "not going armed" paragraph.

However, the school system itself is pretty much guaranteed to have a strict no weapons charge, and has the legal ability to search vehicles on school property, and can terminate employment for it.

So:

- It's legal to posses a handgun in car on school property for a non-student adult. HCP not required. Loaded or not is unclear.

- It's legal for the school to fire you for doing it.

--------------

Full school weapons statute at:

Michie's Legal Resources

Pertinent passage:

"© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

- OS

[Fallguy]

In this day and time, I think many folks would rather face a misdemeanor than lose their jobs!

The statute is all we have to go on.

It says nothing about HCP, loaded or unloaded.

IANAL, but not sure it matters much, as have seen lawyers disagree on this matter.

Some people here have claimed that since there are two identical paragraphs in the statute:

- (the first one says "with intent to go armed") and is a felony, and gives no permission to possess at all

- and the second one (which I quoted), does not say "intent to go armed", and is a misdemeanor, and doesn't mention HCP, would suggest that the gun referred to must be unloaded. Or, since it does NOT mention status of the weapon, perhaps loaded/unloaded is not an issue.

Like much of TN weapons law, it's quite gray.

FallGuy will probably chime in later, he's among our best Non Lawyers -- I know he's seen all sides of this debated over and over, see what his synopsis is.

Read the entire statute. What do YOU think?

- OS

You've summed it pretty well.

The more I've thought about it over time I do think the misdemeanor section © would require the weapon to be unloaded and the ammo stored seperately to avoid the "intent to go armed" part. But that is just my opinion.

However in a "Carry in Parks" AG opinion he did say HCP holders could leave their handgun in their car while at a park being used by a school and did not mention it needing to be unloaded.

...and thanks for the return compliment OS....

[Fallguy]

Since when did schools get the ability to search vehicles of non-student adults without PC or RAS in TN?

I understand what you are saying...but sometimes, some people want to be legal even if there is little to no chance they may get found out.

[Oh Shoot]

Since when did schools get the ability to search vehicles of non-student adults without PC or RAS in TN?

Far as I know, any employer in TN can search vehicles parked on their own property. No?

If not, then what's the big outcry over the guns in parking lot issue?

They can certainly legally search your person as you enter, so I don't see why they couldn't search your car.

- OS

Edited November 19, 2010 by OhShoot

[JayC]

IANAL, but you can decline to have your vehicle search and leave... you might loose your job over leaving, but school administrators don't have some special exception to search non-student adults vehicles.... and a police officer would still require RAS, PC, or a search warrant to search without your consent.

I don't know why the employee parking lot is such a big issue... if the parking lot isn't legally posted (which very few are)... they can only fire you in virtually all cases if they find out you have a firearm in your vehicle... and how are they going to find out if you don't make the mistake of telling somebody you have one.

It's my understanding even if you give your employer written permission to search your vehicle, when they ask for your keys, you can revoke said permission and leave... you can be fired for leaving, but you don't ever have to allow a private company access to your personal vehicle.

Far as I know, any employer in TN can search vehicles parked on their own property. No?

If not, then what's the big outcry over the guns in parking lot issue?

They can certainly legally search your person as you enter, so I don't see why they couldn't search your car.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...

It's my understanding even if you give your employer written permission to search your vehicle, when they ask for your keys, you can revoke said permission and leave... you can be fired for leaving, but you don't ever have to allow a private company access to your personal vehicle.

I assumed that's how it works. If you don't let them search if they want, they fire you. Simple as that.

I used to get searched at FedEx Ground coming and leaving, although most of the time they didn't really, but were supposed to. I know there was a clause in our "contract" that mentioned searching and security, etc. I assume vehicle was mentioned too, but don't honestly remember. I know that some of the kids who were part time loaders got their cars searched a time or two, lots of theft off the line there.

Any teachers here have their contracts handy? Is there a search person/search vehicle clause?

- OS

[leroy]

To add to this conversation a bit; some folks add the ability to search (...give unannounced drug tests, ect...) as a condition of employement.

They tell you about it and you sign on as a "condition of employement". Any breach (...by you, of course...) is grounds for dismissal.

I would carefully read everything i signed during the employment process plus all the "manuals" they have laying around that they refer

too to check this stuff out.

leroy

[Guest bnoland]

Because it is private property they can search for any or no reason. You must have a hcp to have it with the intent to go armed. If you have no hcp I suggest keeping ammo in the glove box or center console and the weapon itself in the trunk.

[Fallguy]

Because it is private property they can search for any or no reason. You must have a hcp to have it with the intent to go armed. If you have no hcp I suggest keeping ammo in the glove box or center console and the weapon itself in the trunk.

The law doesn't stop at a private property line....

[JAB]

I don't work for public schools. I work at a satellite campus for a private college. Unfortunately, TN's law is written to cover any and all schools, regardless of whether they are private or not (so, what happened to all that stuff about private property owners having the right to decide?) I trust and believe OhShoot and Fallguy as much as I can trust and believe anyone who I have never met and only 'know' via a discussion forum. I do not think they engage in purposely misleading or spreading falsehoods. As OhShoot, himself, said however - you have to read the statute and decide how you will proceed based on your understanding.

For me, a lot of it hinges on your interpretation of the rather pivotal phrase, 'operated by'. OS has told me in other threads that 'operated by' is pretty well accepted to mean that you drove the vehicle to the location, retained the keys and will be driving it away. Again, I don't think OS would mislead but I have to weigh the risk against his advice and opinion. Are you operating a vehicle while under the influence if you are in a bar drinking and the vehicle you drove there is parked in the lot outside? After all, you drove it there, retained the keys and plan to (at some point) drive it away. Along those lines, I still think that 'operated by' means you are sitting behind the wheel while actively and directly in control of the vehicle. Whichever the case, as long as there is any grey area I will choose to not take a chance on breaking the law and risking the penalties.

The instructor for my HCP class (who was also basically giving his interpretation) took the law to mean that, in order for the exception to apply, the adult in question must be literally driving the car at the time. His example was that if he got to school to pick up his kid and one of the teachers wanted a conference with him the only way (in his interpretation) he could be legal would be to drive off campus, park somewhere, stow his firearm then walk back onto the campus to talk with the teacher. He believed it would be illegal for him to leave his firearm in his vehicle on school property and it would certainly be illegal for him to touch the firearm (in order to stow it away) while on school property. The instructors wife, who is also an elementary school teacher and who was assisting him with the class, was of the same opinion that it would be illegal for her to have a firearm in her vehicle while at work.

My employer does have a 'no weapons in vehicles' clause in the HR policies and we are required to sign those policies as a condition of employment. I also believe they have a 'permission to search' clause in there. Of course, such is probably more likely on the main campus but we at the satellite campuses do fall under the same rules.

I don't know why the employee parking lot is such a big issue... if the parking lot isn't legally posted (which very few are)... they can only fire you in virtually all cases if they find out you have a firearm in your vehicle... and how are they going to find out if you don't make the mistake of telling somebody you have one.

For some of us, given the current job market, 'only' getting fired and then possibly finding it impossible to find comparable employment, especially when the reason for the firing was intentionally breaking an employer's rule by having a firearm in one's vehicle, is really a pretty major consequence. Consider, too, that such a termination would likely prevent one from drawing unemployment while searching for another job and (as OhShoot alluded) the consequences could have an even greater impact on one's life than being charged with a misdemeanor (which, by my interpretation of the law, could still happen along with losing one's job.) It isn't something I feel that I can afford take lightly. Therefore, the parking lot bill is a major issue, to me - at least the equivalent of being able to legally carry where alchohol is served so I don't have to disarm to legally eat a meal in certain restaurants.

As far as how anyone would know, ever heard of a school getting bomb threats? A student isn't prepared for a particular test, doesn't have a particular project ready or someone simply wants to pull a 'practical joke' and they might call in a bomb threat. There has been no such threat where I work (yet) during the time I have worked here and the likelihood is, admittedly, pretty low. That doesn't mean it won't or can't happen. The likelihood may be higher at some other schools in TN. For instance, there was more than one bomb threat at UT when I attended there (although I graduated there in '96, well before 9/11 and the inherent crackdowns on such activity, etc.) Bomb threats were not all that uncommon, at all, when I was in high school. It seems like we had one or two a year and that was at a relatively rural school - Loudon High (again, though, I graduated in 1989 and bomb threats may not be as common now.) Of course, a bomb threat likely means the building and parking lot being checked with dogs trained to sniff out things like explosives, gunpowder, etc. Now, after the dog alerts on a vehicle because it smells gunpowder inside what do you think a search of the vehicle (by the cops - who now have probable cause) would find?

Edited November 19, 2010 by JAB

[JayC]

First, the parking lot bill won't help you at all... schools will still be against the law, and therefore it will still be an issue... for the vast majority of people they are only at risk of loosing their job, not possible criminal charges.

I agree carrying onto a school campus is an entirely different matter... and my comment was directed towards the vast majority of businesses which aren't legally posted and aren't illegal to generally carry at, not schools.

With that said, I suspect that we'll see at least for college campuses a change in the law in the next 4 years... I am hopefully that Palmer vs DC will result in the carry of arms being found to be constitutionally protected, and then at least for adult students the government is going to have a very hard time justifying the ban on college campus carry for permit holders. Honestly, that is going to be the only way IMHO we're going to see the silly school/university carry laws changed.

[Guest bnoland]

The law doesn't stop at a private property line....

I didn't say the police would be searching your car. The owner or rep of the property you are on can check your car because they don't have to uphold you civil rights as you are on their privately owned property. His employeer can check his vehicle and fire him for having a weapon in there. Just like private security for a private location, if you rent an apartment the owner, management or rep (security guard is a rep once hired by the property) can search anything they want to because you are on their property. They don't have to have PC.

If a public school the local PD works there or another form of security and if they have any reason what so ever to think you may have a gun in there and they check and you do then you will be charged for it.

Edited November 23, 2010 by bnoland

[Guest bnoland]

39-17-1309. Carrying weapons on school property. —

(a)* As used in this section, “weapon of like kind†includes razors and razor blades, except those used solely for personal shaving, and any sharp pointed or edged instrument, except unaltered nail files and clips and tools used solely for preparation of food, instruction and maintenance.

(* (1)* It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, with the intent to go armed, any firearm, explosive, explosive weapon, bowie knife, hawk bill knife, ice pick, dagger, slingshot, leaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, knuckles or any other weapon of like kind, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution.

* * *(2)* A violation of this subsection ( is a Class E felony.

©* (1)* It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

* * *(2)* A violation of this subsection © is a Class B misdemeanor.

(d)* (1)* Each chief administrator of a public or private school shall display in prominent locations about the school a sign, at least six inches (6²) high and fourteen inches (14²) wide, stating:

FELONY. STATE LAW PRESCRIBES A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF SIX (6) YEARS IMPRISONMENT AND A FINE NOT TO EXCEED THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS ($3,000) FOR CARRYING WEAPONS ON SCHOOL PROPERTY.

* * *(2)* As used in this subsection (d), “prominent locations about a school†includes, but is not limited to, sports arenas, gymnasiums, stadiums and cafeterias.

(e)* The provisions of subsections ( and © do not apply to the following persons:

* * *(1)* Persons employed in the army, air force, navy, coast guard or marine service of the United States or any member of the Tennessee national guard when in discharge of their official duties and acting under orders requiring them to carry arms or weapons;

* * *(2)* Civil officers of the United States in the discharge of their official duties;

* * *(3)* Officers and soldiers of the militia and the national guard when called into actual service;

* * *(4)* Officers of the state, or of any county, city or town, charged with the enforcement of the laws of the state, when in the discharge of their official duties;

* * *(5)* Any pupils who are members of the reserve officers training corps or pupils enrolled in a course of instruction or members of a club or team, and who are required to carry arms or weapons in the discharge of their official class or team duties;

* * *(6)* Any private police employed by the administration or board of trustees of any public or private institution of higher education in the discharge of their duties; and

* * *(7)* Any registered security guard/officer who meets the requirements of title 62, chapter 35, and who is discharging the officer's official duties.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 8; 1991, ch. 510, §§ 1-3; 1996, ch. 1009, § 24.]

*

[Guest bnoland]

All of that basically says the only ways you can legally have a weapon on school grounds is to (1) be a police officer, security officer or a military officer and be there on official duty or (2) be a hcp holder and you must and must not handle it in any way while on the property or (3) the weapon is being used in some kind of instruction or school organized ceremony. If you handle it inside your car and someone sees and you get caught it is a class B misd. If you exit the vehicle with it then it becomes a class E felony. If one person calls stating they saw someone with your description with a gun on school property that is all the PC anyone needs to check you and if they find you and the weapon you can and likely will be charged and transported to jail.

[Oh Shoot]

...(2) be a hcp holder and you must and must not handle it in any way while on the property ...

If you handle it inside your car and someone sees and you get caught it is a class B misd. If you exit the vehicle with it then it becomes a class E felony. ..

There is no reference to "HCP holder" anywhere in 39-17-1309 which you quoted, nor in 39-17-1310, which you did not.

The actual legality of weapons possession in general is not addressed in these two statutes, only the legality of possession on school property, a totally separate offense from 39-17-1307.

The difference between the two penalties in 39-17-1309 are that the felony is in response to "going armed" and the misdemeanor is is NOT in response to "going armed", not whether a gun is handled inside car or whatever. When and if we EVER get a definitive explanation of the difference between having a gun and going armed vs having a gun and not going armed within context of this statue, it might be clear. Our illustrious AG has never opined on the matter and I have seen lawyers disagree, so I sure don't claim to know.

39-17-1310 has no "going armed" or not mentioned, so obviously the picking up/dropping off is not concerned with whether the gun is loaded or not, nor whether the possession is by an HCP holder or not, either. Which makes 39-17-1309 all the more confusing about just what constitutes going armed within its context.

I suspect it is simply an egregious, but certainly not isolated, example of a poorly conceived and worded weapons statute; just another piece of legislative sausage that indicates a collective IQ barely above a level that would cause individual institutionalization.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...If a public school the local PD works there or another form of security and if they have any reason what so ever to think you may have a gun in there and they check and you do then you will be charged for it.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think that it is necessarily a criminal offense, particularly if the gun is unloaded or owner has HCP (see previous post).

However, if you are faculty or staff, it would almost certainly be grounds for employee termination in every school system in the state, and if they've taken the trouble to do the search, they probably also had a reason to want to nuke you.

- OS

[Guest bnoland]

It is "unlawful possession of a weapon" to carry a weapon with the intent to go armed with out a hcp so it is obviously illegal to carry a weapon on school grounds or anywhere for that matter without one. What is "intent to go armed"? Different people look at it different but if you have a pistol and loaded mag stored together chances are you are going to be charged assuming you do not have a valid hcp. The easiest way to make sure is to store the firearm and mags/ammo seperately. Best way is probably one locked in the trunk and the other locked in the glove box.

If you have a hcp and get caught with a weapon on school grounds or related areas it's going to depend on what you were doing, what was said or seen, and who it was seen by and if the person who saw it sticks around to talk with police. Would I carry while I am picking to drive up and pick someone up? You bet. Would I carry my weapon with me if I teach at that school and risk my job or legal actions? No way.

Edit: reading again, if you carry with the intent to go armed it is a felony. If you simply have it it is a misd unless it is in your vehicle and you do not handle it while the vehicle is on school property or allow anyone else to handle it.

"© for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

Edited November 23, 2010 by bnoland

[Fallguy]

I didn't say the police would be searching your car. The owner or rep of the property you are on can check your car because they don't have to uphold you civil rights as you are on their privately owned property. His employeer can check his vehicle and fire him for having a weapon in there. Just like private security for a private location, if you rent an apartment the owner, management or rep (security guard is a rep once hired by the property) can search anything they want to because you are on their property. They don't have to have PC.

If a public school the local PD works there or another form of security and if they have any reason what so ever to think you may have a gun in there and they check and you do then you will be charged for it.

I really don't think an employer can unlock your car and search it just because you have parked in their parking lot. Even if you have agreed to such a thing in some employee handbook, you could still revoke such consent at anytime. Of course this would probably get you fired, but my point is that many laws that protect individuals still follow them onto private property, even if the property owner doesn't have to honor your 'civil' rights.

[Mdunntn]

I really don't think an employer can unlock your car and search it just because you have parked in their parking lot. Even if you have agreed to such a thing in some employee handbook, you could still revoke such consent at anytime. Of course this would probably get you fired, but my point is that many laws that protect individuals still follow them onto private property, even if the property owner doesn't have to honor your 'civil' rights.

When it comes to school property the minute you park on it, they gain the right to search your car. At my high school they would do it randomly, not to the teachers though. Maybe the principal and this teacher didn't get along, and asked for them to search it.

[Fallguy]

When it comes to school property the minute you park on it, they gain the right to search your car. At my high school they would do it randomly, not to the teachers though. Maybe the principal and this teacher didn't get along, and asked for them to search it.

I keep hearing this, but never have seen a law quoted or court case cited.... but if true guess I may go to jail at some point then....because I am not going to let some school official search my car just because I came onto school property and they think it would be a fun thing to do.

[Mdunntn]

I keep hearing this, but never have seen a law quoted or court case cited.... but if true guess I may go to jail at some point then....because I am not going to let some school official search my car just because I came onto school property and they think it would be a fun thing to do.

It isn't a school official, usually k-9 cops that search periodically every month or two, had some friends get in trouble because they came to school right after hunting so they had their deer rifle in their car.