CC at work - Small Business, GM and owner say its ok

[Fallguy]

I agree that the state requirements are very weak. However, for that reason obtaining an HCP seems like step 1 to me. I'm quite sure there's lots of people out there who don't have an HCP and are much better shots than me. But it seems to me that if someone can't be bothered to accomplish something as trivial as getting the permit, what would motivate them to pursue it to any degree of competency?

With the time and money involved many may not see getting a HCP as trivial....especially if it is not required in the place where they intended to posses the handgun.

[peejman]

With the time and money involved many may not see getting a HCP as trivial....especially if it is not required in the place where they intended to posses the handgun.

Perhaps trivial wasn't the best word. I guess I'm of the "if you're going to do it, do it all the way" inclination. Getting a gun to collect dust in your desk drawer seems pointless to me. Legal, but pointless.

[Oh Shoot]

I thought this was fairly clear. It doesn't say you have to be the owner, just "place of business". So I would assume with owner's permission you could be in possession of a firearm at work legally without an HCP.

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon. —

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(3) At the person's:

(A) Place of residence;

( Place of business; or

© Premises;

There is plenty in TCA, especially the weapons section, that seems clear, but is debated, with even lawyers on this site not agreeing. Seems lawyers in middle TN have a special problem with switchblades, and like to define terms in ways that Webster or the OED never heard of, for example.

Then there's the AG not agreeing with clearly written statutes like the one dealing with municipal parks.

Since "place of business", or "premises" are not mentioned in the definitions section, just wondered.

Perhaps they are defined somewhere in other sections of TCA.

- OS

[DaveTN]

Certainly the law is debated; that is what lawyers do. Reading the written law is never enough. Intent, state of mind, case law, all comes into play.

If you want to know if you will be arrested for a given crime; ask a cop in the jurisdiction in question.

If you want to know if you will be charged with a given crime; ask a Prosecutor in the jurisdiction in question.

If you want to know if you will be convicted for a given crime; ask a Cop, Prosecutor or Defense Attorney in the jurisdiction in question; then sort it out in your own mind.

Or you can just post the question here and we can all have fun with it.

Your Tax Attorney or your Divorce lawyer is not a Criminal Defense attorney unless they specialize in that field.

As a former cop I read legal stuff on the forums from the ridiculous to the informed. I disagree with stuff I have seen other guys that have worked as Cops post and I have seen Attorneys disagree. I just like to point out to people that you and you alone are responsible for obtaining good legal advice. Don’t take the word of someone just because they are saying what you want to hear. And don’t teach your kids stupid chit. I don’t know how many kids I have taken to jail because they were doing what their parents told them to do on a traffic stop.

I like legal arguments. And I can take either side.

[JayC]

OP didn't make that clear, whether he has HCP or not.

Says his assistant does not.

It is an exception to unlawful weapon possession that the possession was "at the person's ... place of business or premises".

Does that mean you must own the biz, or just work there?

This has of course been debated, with no clear outcome, and AFAIK, no TN AG opinion.

Obviously, HCP is best way to go.

- OS

Place of business clearly covers people other than the owner of said business.... It has for years before there even was a HCP for people to get...

And for the record, here is a legal definition:

PLACE OF BUSINESS. The place where a man usually transacts his affairs or business. When a man keeps a store, shop, counting room or office, independently and distinctly from all other persons, that is deemed his place of business and when he usually transacts his business at the counting house, office, and the like, occupied and used by another, that will also be considered his place of business, if he has no independent place of his own. But when he has no particular right to use a place for such private purpose, as in an insurance office, in exchange room, banking room, a post office, and the like, where persons generally resort, these will not be considered as the party's place of business, although he may occasionally or transiently transact business there.

You'll note no where in 39-17-1308a is ownership required... I'm not aware any case where an employee approved by the owner has been charged with firearms possession under 39-17-1307...

Under the assumption that this women has no criminal record, and works in a place that has been robbed on a number of occasions, it sure seems to me the Class C/A misdemeanor charge she could face even if a DA tried to charge her (And I seriously doubt this would be a violation of the law), is not worth getting beat up and/or killed while saving up the money to get a HCP.

It would be best for her to get an HCP and carry everywhere she can legally... but she has permission of the owner, and GM, it appears it's her 'place of business' as commonly defined, and the place has been repeatedly robbed... have a pistol, hell carry it while at work in your desk drawer isn't probably good enough...

Edited November 17, 2010 by JayC

[DaveTN]

I'm not aware any case where an employee approved by the owner has been charged with firearms possession under 39-17-1307...

How or why would you be aware of it if it happened?

[JayC]

How or why would you be aware of it if it happened?

Because of the work that I do, I have access to a Lexis/Nexis account and to better educate myself I have been reading through TN case's involving 39-17-13xx as I've had time.... I've read through virtually all the case overviews for the last 15 years or so, and nothing jumps out at me as being anywhere on point (Yes, I know a very boring hobby to be sure)

The VAST majority of 39-17-1307 cases appear to be related to... wait for it... drugs So clearly any case that mentions drugs or armed robbery I haven't read the entire case I'm not a lawyer, I'm just stating my laypersons opinion of what I know. If you're aware of a case which would be on point I'd love to hear about it

[Guest 270win]

I honestly wouldn't say a word. TN is an at will employment or whatever it is called. I wouldn't even put that idea in my boss' head. I wouldn't bring it up. If I wanted to carry a gun and thought my job was a robbery risk, and I had a permit, I'd carry a gun. I would never leave a gun in my desk because desks can often be dug through by the bossman whenever he wants. I'd carry the handgun on my person well hidden. Get a nice little 38 special or 380 auto that is VERY reliable. I'm guessing you dress up for work. Pick out a good holster that hides your gun. Don't tell anyone at work what you are doing. Don't discuss it. It is seriously best that way in these corporate environments because people usually can't keep their mouths shut. No one will know as long as you have a small gun and a good holster that fits well with the kind of clothes you wear. I do it all the time. With dress slacks and a dress shirt I use a Galco leather ankle holster with my S&W Airweight 642. It is great for sitting at a desk with customers, going to conferences, or driving when dressed up. When I pump gas or or walk across a parking lot I just pop it out of the holster and put it in my pocket. I use a little Uncle Mike's pocket holster with khaki pants or when I don't care as much about hiding the gun and want to get to it faster with dress slacks, like at night alone walking after a conference.

Edited November 17, 2010 by 270win

[Fallguy]

Not quite what you guys are talking about, but is our New govenor going to get the parking lot thing going or what? ANyone heard anything?

Post above and responses moved to the thread below.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/tennessee-politics-legislation/48428-parking-lot-carry-exemption.html

Edited November 18, 2010 by Fallguy

[Guest foister82]

The robberies didnt happen on this property, actually. My assistant was robbed at gunpoint at the bank doing a night deposit after hours. My boss himself was robbed at a branch in SC when they first started the company a few years ago and has carried since. My assistant has the training and actually took the HCP class and self defense classes but doesnt want to go through the full process of getting the actual permit for whatever reason. I do not try to change her mind on it as she's pretty set on no physical carry outside of her home and work. Per her own request she no longer does company errands. The business is definitely not posted. In fact, the owner and GM see posting as stopping only the good guys who are legally protecting themselves. A robber wont see the sign and say "oh i cant rob this place they're posted"