When did a denim jacket become a bullet proof vest?

[Will Carry]

A buddy of mine said today, "Well winter is coming, I guess I'll have to put my 9mm up and get out my 40." I asked why and he said,"That 9mm just don't have the power to go through winter coats or heavy denim and still get good penatration."

I have never shot my winter coat to see if it will slow down a bullet enough so that it is no longer lethal but do you think this guy has a point? Should I put up my 9MM up for the winter?

[trblmkr13]

I do not claim to be an expert but a good 9mm SD round is still lethal with a winter coat on Carhartt is tough but not that tough

[robbiev]

I have seen a couple of real life examples of a thick coat that slowed down a 9mm enough that it didn't penetrate the chest cavity deep enough to stop the attacker, however, I don't think it's all that common, and I don't think it's fair to generalize and say that all 9mm rounds are defeated by thick jackets.

[Erik88]

those are the same guys that switch to a heavier grain bullet in the winter. I'm not a ballistic expert but that just seems odd to me.

[Guest tnxdshooter]

A buddy of mine said today, "Well winter is coming, I guess I'll have to put my 9mm up and get out my 40." I asked why and he said,"That 9mm just don't have the power to go through winter coats or heavy denim and still get good penatration."

I have never shot my winter coat to see if it will slow down a bullet enough so that it is no longer lethal but do you think this guy has a point? Should I put up my 9MM up for the winter?

Why do you think alot of police departments have gone 357 sig or 40 and gotten away from the 9? For this very reason we are discussing LOL.

[Guest BEARMAN]

Why do you think alot of police departments have gone 357 sig or 40 and gotten away from the 9? For this very reason we are discussing LOL.

I thought the logic behind that change, was due to BG's all hopped up on goofenthol, crack and cocaine and the like, and the 9mm just pi$$ed 'em off.

[gnmwilliams]

I still don't know of a single person who'd be willing to stand in front of my 9mm versus a .40 so I think I'll stick with my 9mm DPX ammo and let it do it's thang.

Edited November 1, 2010 by gnmwilliams

[mdmoseley]

Actually alot of PDs have gone away from 9mm due to over penatration. Thru and thrus hit innocent people on the other side.

[ftncityfatboy]

the age old discussion of whether a 9MM is a good SD round, here we go again...........................

[Guest m&pc9]

I still don't know of a single person who'd be willing to stand in front of my 9mm versus a .40 so I think I'll stick with my 9mm DPX ammo and let it do it's thang.

I will stand in front of your 9mm, But I get to shoot my .40 first.

[Warbird]

Man these caliber debates get downright stupid at times. First the LEA's in this country are often falling over themselves to run toward whatever the FBI is using. Many allowed the 9mm when the military started using them and the FBI looked to them. The only reason they didn't hustle to the 10mm is the FBI used it too short a time. Then they slowly changed over to the 40 after the FBI went there.

To say LEA's are running to the 357 is sort of a joke. Some have gone to it because of its penetration power through car doors and windows. Many think it is limited in its usefulness because it often over penetrates. It is true the old 9mm ammo often over penetrated and LA even went to subsonic 9 rounds because of several deaths which occurred to innocent bystanders.

Has clothing stopped ammo before? Absolutely! It has happened many times with 380 and it has happened with every other major pistol self defense round and many that are not considered major SD rounds.

Pistols cartridges are inferior man stoppers in general. They are good in a pinch, better than a sharp stick in the eye, good for fighting your way to a rifle, good for fighting your way OUT of harms way.

9, 40 and 45 will all stop people. They all have epic failures and successes. Placement is the key to stopping a human being i a gunfight and sometimes it takes many rounds to do it. Just ask the police officer who shot her suspect multiple times with a 45 including in the head and he still walked outside and shot another officer killing him. And forget the center of mass crap, aim for the surgical triangle; heart and lungs. Brain shots are good if you get them and are an excellent shooter. And if you attacker has some sort of cover shoot for the biggest area of possibility and shoot them there hoping they either give up or give you a better shot.

Shoot what you like and shoot it well. You will have excellent odds of success if you practice often, shoot well under stress and have the proper mindset. W/o the last part you are toast anyway.

If it's a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Warbird

[Garufa]

Mmm, caliber debate...

[DaveTN]

I have never shot my winter coat to see if it will slow down a bullet enough so that it is no longer lethal but do you think this guy has a point? Should I put up my 9MM up for the winter?

According to you lately… You are going to shoot them in the shorts anyway; so what does it matter if they have a coat on?

[Guest RevScottie]

The argument that some make is that denim will "clog up" the hollow point and make it less effective. So should I switch to a winter hardball ammo? Don't let the ammo manufacturers hear this; they will immediately repackage hardball into winter packaging with snow flakes on it and charge $1+ per round

[East_TN_Patriot]

The argument that some make is that denim will "clog up" the hollow point and make it less effective. So should I switch to a winter hardball ammo? Don't let the ammo manufacturers hear this; they will immediately repackage hardball into winter packaging with snow flakes on it and charge $1+ per round

Well, actually this is true. When you shoot hollowpoint ammo through wood, drywall, and some clothing, it fills the hollow in the bullet and reduces or prevents the bullet from expanding, basically turning it into a FMJ round for all practical purposes. It's not that the clothing slows the bullet down, but that it retards the expansion and hence the benefits of hollowpoint ammo. Different rounds perform better and worse when being fired through different mediums. The police department I used to work for did tests by firing through different fabrics and materials before picking Speer Gold Dot as our duty round. It was least influenced by the majority of materials, although wood and drywall generally clog up all hollowpoint bullets.

One of the big turning-points in the transition to larger calibers in law enforcement was the Hollywood bank robbery and shootout when the LAPD encountered those two crims wearing full body armor. After the incident, many officers blamed their inability to take down the bad guys was the small 9mm bullet. Does the 40SW hit harder? Sure, but it still won't penetrate body armor. The fact of the matter is that the LAPD didn't train their officers to shoot anywhere but center mass and they sat there shooting into the BG's body armor wondering why they weren't going down. Simple fact of the matter is that every study I am aware of clearly shows that shot placement trumps caliber every time. If you don't believe that, Google Trooper Mark Coates and you will see a gun battle between a cop with a .357 mag and a bad guy with a NAA .22LR pocket pistol. The cop lost and died there on the side of the road with a single gunshot wound while the bad guy lived after being hit 5 times including one shot that shattered his right arm, which was his dominant shooting hand (he fired the fatal shot with his left hand). As a former police firearms instructor, I am comfortable carrying a .32ACP, a .380ACP, or a .38 revolver because I know that they will do the job in a close face-to-face encounter.

Edited November 2, 2010 by East_TN_Patriot

[leroy]

....A buddy of mine said today, "Well winter is coming, I guess I'll have to put my 9mm up and get out my 40." I asked why and he said,"That 9mm just don't have the power to go through winter coats or heavy denim and still get good penatration."

I have never shot my winter coat to see if it will slow down a bullet enough so that it is no longer lethal but do you think this guy has a point? Should I put up my 9MM up for the winter?....

I'm like some others; i think this is a "tempest in a teapot" and an imaginary construct of some of the gun magazine "intelligencia" and their consultant buddies that are paid to give advice to the foolish.

Remember this: When the Germans marched to Stalingrad they were carrying Smeisser Machine pistols, P-38's, and Lugers. They are all 9 mm. It seems to me like a hot loaded 9mm would go thru the average commie (...who was wearing a big coat; its cold in Russia in the winter...). My bet is that it will go thru a bad guy too. I say: "Dont worry about it. Shoot straight...".

Food for thought.

Leroy

[Smith]

This is funny since it is exactly the opposite. 9mm is a far better penetrator than .40 or .45, especially on thick clothing or soft armor. The caveat to that is the 147g 9mm. It does tend to travel at a velocity that is too slow to penetrate thick clothing (ala Miami shooting). Most new studies show 124g +p is the ideal round for 9mm as it carriers the right balance of velocity and speed for the bullet to work properly. It has the weight and velocity to penetrate barriers (clothing, glass, ect) in a manner similar to .357 SIG without the over penetration.

[kesava]

If it's a fair fight, your tactics suck.

That's awesome and now my new motto.

[LagerHead]

That's awesome and now my new motto.

I've also heard it said, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you're walking into an ambush."

[Guest tnxdshooter]

I thought the logic behind that change, was due to BG's all hopped up on goofenthol, crack and cocaine and the like, and the 9mm just pi$$ed 'em off.

That to

[Guest tnxdshooter]

Man these caliber debates get downright stupid at times. First the LEA's in this country are often falling over themselves to run toward whatever the FBI is using. Many allowed the 9mm when the military started using them and the FBI looked to them. The only reason they didn't hustle to the 10mm is the FBI used it too short a time. Then they slowly changed over to the 40 after the FBI went there.

To say LEA's are running to the 357 is sort of a joke. Some have gone to it because of its penetration power through car doors and windows. Many think it is limited in its usefulness because it often over penetrates. It is true the old 9mm ammo often over penetrated and LA even went to subsonic 9 rounds because of several deaths which occurred to innocent bystanders.

Has clothing stopped ammo before? Absolutely! It has happened many times with 380 and it has happened with every other major pistol self defense round and many that are not considered major SD rounds.

Pistols cartridges are inferior man stoppers in general. They are good in a pinch, better than a sharp stick in the eye, good for fighting your way to a rifle, good for fighting your way OUT of harms way.

9, 40 and 45 will all stop people. They all have epic failures and successes. Placement is the key to stopping a human being i a gunfight and sometimes it takes many rounds to do it. Just ask the police officer who shot her suspect multiple times with a 45 including in the head and he still walked outside and shot another officer killing him. And forget the center of mass crap, aim for the surgical triangle; heart and lungs. Brain shots are good if you get them and are an excellent shooter. And if you attacker has some sort of cover shoot for the biggest area of possibility and shoot them there hoping they either give up or give you a better shot.

Shoot what you like and shoot it well. You will have excellent odds of success if you practice often, shoot well under stress and have the proper mindset. W/o the last part you are toast anyway.

If it's a fair fight, your tactics suck.

More often than not people shot with any caliber pistol dont die. At least according to some articles I have read and what my leo buddies tell me.

Edited November 2, 2010 by tnxdshooter

[daddyo]

As usual, lots of claims being made without any reliable sources to back it up.

I personally am not interested in opinions about ammunition, only facts.

Edited November 2, 2010 by DaddyO

[gnmwilliams]

I will stand in front of your 9mm, But I get to shoot my .40 first.

Doh!

[leroy]

As usual, lots of claims being made without any reliable sources to back it up.

I personally am not interested in opinions about ammunition, only facts.

Daddy O:____________

Lotsa dead commies in eastern europe in WW2. Lots of em wearin big coats. Like you;

i'm skeptical of the "pundits". The military is the place to look if you want to see

whow this stuff works on a day in day out basis.

Leroy

[TGO David]

More often than not people shot with any caliber pistol dont die. At least according to some articles I have read and what my leo buddies tell me.

Let's not get into the business of proliferating anecdotes. I've got friends who have told me all manner of bull**** before. It doesn't make it true.