Carrabba's posting...legal or no

[Oh Shoot]

So how do we start holding these nitwits accountable for their idiot posting jobs?

If you want it more clear cut, let them know they aren't posting according to the statute, so that they'll get compliant -- that way if you get caught and charged, you'll be convicted for sure to set the precedent for the rest of us.

- OS

[Guest DMasterson]

I feel that this is one area where Texas does it a little better...

There is a posting in Texas for places that serve alcohol on premises that says: '-NOTICE- The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine not to exceed $10,000.'

The reason I love this sign is two-fold. First, it does nothing to prevent a handgun permit holder from entering. Second, it gives all the 'guns-are-evil' crowd a warm fuzzy because they think that it means all weapons. It's a win-win in my book.

[E4 No More]

Well, you cannot draw someone into your establishment and then inform them that they are breaking the law no matter what the language says. An entrance is an entrance after all; not the foyer.

[Oh Shoot]

I feel that this is one area where Texas does it a little better...

There is a posting in Texas for places that serve alcohol on premises that says: '-NOTICE- The unlicensed possession of a weapon on these premises is a felony with a maximum penalty of 10 years imprisonment and a fine not to exceed $10,000.'

The reason I love this sign is two-fold. First, it does nothing to prevent a handgun permit holder from entering. Second, it gives all the 'guns-are-evil' crowd a warm fuzzy because they think that it means all weapons. It's a win-win in my book.

There's the "51%" booze posting ("bars"), where nobody can legally carry.

In TN you can carry in a bar, unless it's posted.

Texas is generally as restrictive on carry as TN, if not more so. (no open carry period, no church carry, other stuff).

- OS

[Fallguy]

There's the "51%" booze posting ("bars"), where nobody can legally carry.

In TN you can carry in a bar, unless it's posted.

Texas is generally as restrictive on carry as TN, if not more so. (no open carry period, no church carry, other stuff).

- OS

True...I think maybe he just meant about that sign in the sense it sort of seems to play to both sides.

[Guest tnxdshooter]

If you want it more clear cut, let them know they aren't posting according to the statute, so that they'll get compliant -- that way if you get caught and charged, you'll be convicted for sure to set the precedent for the rest of us.

- OS

I aint gonna let em know. LOL

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

This may be slightly off topic but does anyone has an idea on exactly what size sign counts... I know the statute says:

Either form of notice used shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, property, or portion of the building or property, posted.

Does this mean just big enough to read or something that is big enough you will see it without having to thoroughly seach? lol

I only ask because I happened to notice a gas station I usually frequent has a gunbuster that is posted on a sign with a bunch of other info and the gunbuster is maybe 1.5" diameter.

[Fallguy]

This may be slightly off topic but does anyone has an idea on exactly what size sign counts... I know the statute says:

Either form of notice used shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, property, or portion of the building or property, posted.

Does this mean just big enough to read or something that is big enough you will see it without having to thoroughly seach? lol

I only ask because I happened to notice a gas station I usually frequent has a gunbuster that is posted on a sign with a bunch of other info and the gunbuster is maybe 1.5" diameter.

Well as with a lot of the firearms laws in TN there is nothing exact in the law...what is "plainly visible" is up to the discretion/interpretation of the owner, HCP holder, LEO and/or Judge. Out of those 4 there is one that counts more than others, but I'd hope to never get to that point....

But the simple answer to your question is, NO, there is no legislative or judicial definition of "plainly visible" or what minimum size (if any) would constitute that...at least not to my knowledge.

[Guest 270win]

The sign does not seem legal. I would not worry about it if my gun was hidden. I would not email the company, or they may put up a legal sign, thus risking people of criminal prosecution down the road. It is not worth it. I like the don't ask don't tell policy of keeping my mouth shut and keeping my gun hidden.

It is not worth 'holding companies accountable' for signs that are not compliant with the law. If the sign is not compliant with the law, then you cannot be prosecuted by the law. That is a GOOD thing. Just smile, go about your business, keep your gun hidden and don't worry. Let the property owner keep his non compliant sign up. Better that way than a compliant one that can get you in trouble with the law.

These folks in public don't have X Ray vision and can't see under your clothes, so it is kind of dumb to run into XYZ company with a 6 inch 357 mag on and say "Sir your no gun sign isn't BIG ENOUGH and COMPLIANT to kick me off your property...put up a BIGGER ONE to make it LEGIT". Most people are in condition white and are in space. If your gun is concealed in the right holster, you have nothing to worry about, unless going through metal detectors. If you worry about people seeing your gun, check into your clothes, holster, and gun combo.

Edited November 2, 2010 by 270win

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Well as with a lot of the firearms laws in TN there is nothing exact in the law...what is "plainly visible" is up to the discretion/interpretation of the owner, HCP holder, LEO and/or Judge. Out of those 4 there is one that counts more than others, but I'd hope to never get to that point....

But the simple answer to your question is, NO, there is no legislative or judicial definition of "plainly visible" or what minimum size (if any) would constitute that...at least not to my knowledge.

Yeah that was my impression. Another thing the legilsature maybe should have put a little more thought into lol. I just received my HCP so I am extra careful to check everywhere near the door for a sign or gunbuster. However I think alot of people can miss it. I know the retailers dont want the big sign because it could bring bad publicity for them but personally I think the sign or gunbuster should have to be pretty large ie; 8.5" x11" minimum on the sign and 6" diameter on the gunbuster. That way both the rights of the property owner are protected and the HCP carrier has adequate notice.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

The sign does not seem legal. I would not worry about it if my gun was hidden. I would not email the company, or they may put up a legal sign, thus risking people of criminal prosecution down the road. It is not worth it. I like the don't ask don't tell policy of keeping my mouth shut and keeping my gun hidden.

It is not worth 'holding companies accountable' for signs that are not compliant with the law. If the sign is not compliant with the law, then you cannot be prosecuted by the law. That is a GOOD thing. Just smile, go about your business, keep your gun hidden and don't worry. Let the property owner keep his non compliant sign up. Better that way than a compliant one that can get you in trouble with the law.

These folks in public don't have X Ray vision and can't see under your clothes, so it is kind of dumb to run into XYZ company with a 6 inch 357 mag on and say "Sir your no gun sign isn't BIG ENOUGH and COMPLIANT to kick me off your property...put up a BIGGER ONE to make it LEGIT". Most people are in condition white and are in space. If your gun is concealed in the right holster, you have nothing to worry about, unless going through metal detectors. If you worry about people seeing your gun, check into your clothes, holster, and gun combo.

I agree with this post. Though am I under the correct understanding they could still kick you out regardless? You just would not face criminal liability?

[Guest 270win]

Someone can ask you to leave a property with or without some sort of sign. The signs are gray, and I think that is in the favor of us and keeps us out of hot water. The law is also gray and vague and can be good for the gun owner if by a snowball chance in the summer you are charged under this sign law. This is the typical 'feel good' crap law that serves no purpose, cannot in no way be enforced, and is not being enforced. The most that is going on is in rare chance people are being asked to leave when a firearm is being accidently exposed. This is a misdemeanor five hundred dollar fine, IF the police are called, IF you are charged by police and prosecutor, IF you are CONVICTED in court by a very vague sign law.

Crackheads, dopeheads, drunks, and prostitutes roam Memphis freely and some Memphis police drive right on by and when cons do ever go to court they are slapped on the wrist. I think the 'system' has better things to worry about than a sign on a door and try to fine us five hundred bucks.

I'm not a lawyer and won't care to advertise myself as one.

[Punisher84]

Crackheads, dopeheads, drunks, and prostitutes roam Memphis freely and some Memphis police drive right on by and when cons do ever go to court they are slapped on the wrist. I think the 'system' has better things to worry about than a sign on a door and try to fine us five hundred bucks.

I'm not a lawyer and won't care to advertise myself as one.

Yea that doesn't happen anywhere else in the state or country.

[Guest broncobuddha]

You never know. Improper/old posting may be a gun advocate manager's way of appeasing the anti-gun crowd while secretly letting the CCWers still carry.

Either way, we all know what the proper posting is. If it's not posted or isn't posted properly, keep it concealed and keep your mouth shut about it.

[Fallguy]

You never know. Improper/old posting may be a gun advocate manager's way of appeasing the anti-gun crowd while secretly letting the CCWers still carry.

I've heard that several times, but never from a property owner.

Either way, we all know what the proper posting is. If it's not posted or isn't posted properly, keep it concealed and keep your mouth shut about it.

+1

[Guest nysos]

Either way, we all know what the proper posting is. If it's not posted or isn't posted properly, keep it concealed and keep your mouth shut about it.

Agreed. Do your job on properly concealing it and all will be well.

It was my understanding from my HCP class that the posting had to be at ALL entrances by the law. Not all entrances have a lobby, or waiting area - they are to be posted on the door/windows next to doors, etc. If it is posted in a lobby, the lobby is considered part of the establishment - by entering to see the sign, you have broken the law. That is why it should be posted on the exterior. Correct me if I am wrong, but thats what I took from my class.

[Fallguy]

Agreed. Do your job on properly concealing it and all will be well.

It was my understanding from my HCP class that the posting had to be at ALL entrances by the law. Not all entrances have a lobby, or waiting area - they are to be posted on the door/windows next to doors, etc. If it is posted in a lobby, the lobby is considered part of the establishment - by entering to see the sign, you have broken the law. That is why it should be posted on the exterior. Correct me if I am wrong, but thats what I took from my class.

It has to be at all entrances, used by the public, to the area where carry is to be prohibited.

In otherwords, if a place wanted to allow carry in the foyer but not inside the building, only the entrance(s) to the buidling would need to be posted, not the entrance to the foyer. If it is only a single room where carry is to be prohibited, then only the entrance to that room would need to be posted.

[E4 No More]

It has to be at all entrances, used by the public, to the area where carry is to be prohibited.

In otherwords, if a place wanted to allow carry in the foyer but not inside the building, only the entrance(s) to the buidling would need to be posted, not the entrance to the foyer. If it is only a single room where carry is to be prohibited, then only the entrance to that room would need to be posted.

You'll have to prove that one for me Fallguy. Nowhere have I seen that differentiation in the law.

[Oh Shoot]

You'll have to prove that one for me Fallguy. Nowhere have I seen that differentiation in the law.

I'm sure he's basing comment on:

"...including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited."

- OS

[Fallguy]

You'll have to prove that one for me Fallguy. Nowhere have I seen that differentiation in the law.

Just read the law...

39-17-1359((1) Notice of the prohibition permitted by subsection (a) shall be accomplished by displaying one (1) or both of the notices described in subdivision ((3) in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited. Either form of notice used shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, property, or portion of the building or property, posted.

As you can see it allows the property, building or portion of the building or portion of the property to be posted.

39-17-1359((3)© A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

Again refrers to a buidling, property or portion of a building or a portion of the property and says proper posting includes entrances to those area where carry possesion is to be prohibited.

Can be found at http://www.michie.com/tennessee/

Edited November 5, 2010 by Fallguy