Modified or non-stock carry handguns

[Guest carbonarcher]

Thanks on the getting out of NJ bit! I will not wish that on my worst foe!! I chose to bother them and make them do all the paper work!!!! lol

I am just happy to be here!!!!

Thanks again Fallguy!

I look forward to your help in the future!!!

[Fallguy]

Have you looked up the laws in NJ and see what it took to get a pistol?

http://www.njsp.org/info/pdf/firearms/062408_title13ch54.pdf

[Guest 270win]

My carry handgun has only had the trigger smoothed/action job by the S&W factory when having warranty work done. I've only changed out the grips on the revolver. I was told in fact by the S&W rep that the action job would not lighten the trigger on my 642.

Everything is factory on that gun.

I haven't had any work done on my 1911 yet but will probably only send it to Springfield Armory, so everything is factory. I think that cuts down on problems in a civil case (heaven forbid the rarity of it happening in TN).

If I were to do the work myself on a gun, like a trigger job, I would not want to carry the gun in public for liability reasons. I do know we have the civil protection law, but still I would feel better. A range gun with work I decide to do I could care less about because it is a 'fun gun' not a self defense gun.

[leroy]

....I have a lot of respect for Ayoob and others like him (...sadly, I dont says leroy....), however they ultimately are paid for their submissions to these various magazines. After a while one (or at least I do) must begin to wonder how much of what they present amounts to personal hypothesis for the sake of generating a word-count to occupy space in a magazine or on a web site to generate revenue. ...

....and I think that about sums it up...

I think Dave and Fallguy nailed it. I think it's baloney and a 'tempest in a teapot".

Leroy

[Guest tnxdshooter]

My carry handgun has only had the trigger smoothed/action job by the S&W factory when having warranty work done. I've only changed out the grips on the revolver. I was told in fact by the S&W rep that the action job would not lighten the trigger on my 642.

Everything is factory on that gun.

I haven't had any work done on my 1911 yet but will probably only send it to Springfield Armory, so everything is factory. I think that cuts down on problems in a civil case (heaven forbid the rarity of it happening in TN).

If I were to do the work myself on a gun, like a trigger job, I would not want to carry the gun in public for liability reasons. I do know we have the civil protection law, but still I would feel better. A range gun with work I decide to do I could care less about because it is a 'fun gun' not a self defense gun.

Right on I agree. All the work done to my springfield xd 40 was done by the springfield armory custom shop.

[JReedEsq]

Carbon Archer from post 19:

"Sorry guys, being once bitten twice shy! I know that this doesn't apply hear! Maybe some insight! My brother inlaw is a patent attorney, West Point grad. We both grew up in North Jersey,(I know!) We have had this debate over and over again! I don't know if you all know what it takes to be a patent lawer, (I didn't) graduating from West Point with a degree in electrical engenerring, then law school, and then patent law. He also worked with Glock to help other companys from copying there patent, going back I think it may have been S&W with the sigma. (If my memory serves) He knew that I was a far right wing guy who competed with 1911's he always said, "Don't use a pistol that you modified for competition for self defense!" He told me that the trial sharks will have a field day with that, even if you were in the right!

Then I questioned- "Why did you modify your pistol?" "Were you looking to get into a confrentation?" "Where you looking for someone to break into your house, or threaten you? So you could "Get them" ?

After that, He reminded me that the majority of trial sharks are left wing libs. looking to get a civial suit to get all kind of money, hense What was his name from South Carolina who cheated on his wife with cancer? John.....? He also reminded me that you may have been right in your defense of your self and your family, all it takes is one shred for the shark to blow out of the water to get you for the rest of your life, even if you were in the right!

I had another debate about the ammo! Hollow point or polymer filled tip?

Go with the filled tip, I use Power ball! Again as he said, in the court of law, why did you use a hollow point? Were you looking to kill some one?

As his studies have been stated, he testified that the polymer tiped ammo are the best on the market!

1. Shark can't call them a hollow point!

2. They work better, especially with heavy clothing!

3. Power ball and glasers are made to dump all there energy into a wall or something. So that they can not penitrate a wall and hit someone else.

This establishes that you are safety concerened!

Ok!

Keep it Stock! Keep you comp guns for play! Don't carry them! You may be right in the court with criminal charges, not with civial suits!!

Ok, my 2 cents and off the soap box!

Sorry for the rant!

I would hate to see anything happen to a good person doing the right thing and a money hungery shark comes along and takes everything away, because you had a trigger job!"

Where the hell do you get the idea that most trial lawyers are "libs" and "sharks"? Aren't you forgetting that most of us are small business owners? How about the fact that it takes a lawyer to argue against every lawsuit you disagree with? I hate to say you don't know what you are talking about but the garbage you are spewing is just about as ignorant as the folks that believe every LEO is out to violate their rights, or every HCP holder is a trigger-happy nut-job just waiting to shoot up a school.

Edited October 28, 2010 by JReedEsq
first post was from Blackberry, needed revision

[MikePapa1]

Let me jump in here, as well. I've practiced law for 27 years. I'm now a sole practitioner (though my wife works out of the office as a mediator) but have worked in big firms and small doing mainly trial work, civil and criminal. That being said, I would not personally carry a modified pistol. I carry a Sig P226 that I've carried regularly for 20 years. The only modification is a Pachmyr slip on grip. I carry only factory ammunition. They are 9mm Federal Hydrashok 115 gr JHP +P+ that I carry because it is a law enforcement round. I carry this way because the chances are if you are in a shooting incident you will be sued. You may, or may not, be criminally charged but even if you are not and LE declines to prosecute does not mean you won't be sued. I don't have quite as much faith in the civil liability immunity in the TCA as some here, because reasonable people may differ on whether the shooting was justified within the meaning of the statute. Modifications to your carry weapon may lead a judge or jury to conclude that you shooting wasn't justified. Why give anyone who comes after you more ammunition? (Pun intended) Why increase your risk unnecessarily?

[Fallguy]

I think some of us may have different ideas of "modification".

Technically a new trigger, barrel etc...are modifcations, but I don't think they woud carry the same type of scutiny that mods done for competition or the like would.

Just as I don't think Hydra Schock, Hollow Point or other "standard" ammo would be like a homemade "hotload"

So I think there are different levels here...each with their own ammount of extra liabilty they may or may not have...

Just my $.02

[MikePapa1]

Fall, I don't necessarily disagree with your points, but any modification will be scrutinized and decisions are made based upon the totality of circumstances. I view it sort of like buying insurance.

[Fallguy]

I understand Mike...

But my point is that some would say the type of ammo you carry can bring more scutiny than plain ball ammo.

I also agree you don't want to look like a "gun nut" if it goes to a trial.......

[MikePapa1]

So long as you use factory ammunition you shouldn't have a real problem with either judge or jury. Hollow points are carried by the police so I don't think that they would be a factor absent a bunch of other factors. By the way, the fact you are on this site, by definition, makes you a "gun nut," though I expect I could by asking questions make anyone involved in a shooting look nut-like with the proper questions.

[Fallguy]

So long as you use factory ammunition you shouldn't have a real problem with either judge or jury. Hollow points are carried by the police so I don't think that they would be a factor absent a bunch of other factors. By the way, the fact you are on this site, by definition, makes you a "gun nut," though I expect I could by asking questions make anyone involved in a shooting look nut-like with the proper questions.

Only if you learned anything over the last 27 years....

[LagerHead]

Right and alot of PD and such are going 357 sig now due to geater penetration than the 40.

Oh, now you done it.

So since TCA says in plain black and white that you are "immune" from a civil suit if your shooting was deemed to be justified, wouldn't it be illegal to even file a civil suit?

I personally don't worry about it. I carry what I want, how I want. Like the old cliche goes, I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

[Fallguy]

So since TCA says in plain black and white that you are "immune" from a civil suit if your shooting was deemed to be justified, wouldn't it be illegal to even file a civil suit?

Well....Yes....since the suit would be needed to determine if it was justified or not.

Also the courts have ruled that no law can prevent someones access to the courts....only what happens after a ruiling is made.

However there is at least one attorney's opinon on this site (in a different thread) that has said, that a criminal courts ruling of it being justifed or the DAs decision not to file charges would carry weight in a civil court. But I admit I'd like to that proven in a court case first. ....as long as it's not "my" case...

[Guest 270win]

I'm not a lawyer but I think anyone can file a civil suit against anyone. You would need a lawyer (unless you are brave enough to defend it yourself) to try to toss the civil suit against you. He would be the one to recover the costs from the plaintiff, after the court said that there can't be a civil suit against you in TN for lawful self defense early on.

[Mike]

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/Network_2010-9.pdf

Everyone should read this at least once.

Mike

[MikePapa1]

You do need a factfinder to determine justification. I agree that a criminal case would carry great weight in the civil case but it would not, necessarily, be dispositive. For example, a DA might decline to prosecute because he can't determine beyond a reasonable doubt (Their required standard) that it wasn't justified. Face it, if you shoot someone you are almost certainly going to be sued.

[Fallguy]

You do need a factfinder to determine justification. I agree that a criminal case would carry great weight in the civil case but it would not, necessarily, be dispositive. For example, a DA might decline to prosecute because he can't determine beyond a reasonable doubt (Their required standard) that it wasn't justified. Face it, if you shoot someone you are almost certainly going to be sued.

I tend to agree with you....that a criminal ruling may help it does not eliminate a civil trial.

[Guest carbonarcher]

Jreed esq.

I am sorry if I offened you! I do thank you for your insight and your thoughts. I think that we are all forgeting here, we are all airing our .02cents. That is all nothing less nothing more. You do what your wish to do and I will do what I wish to do! AGAIN, THANK GOD FOR TGO, WHERE WE GET TO GIVE OUR OPIOIONS WITH OUT BEING ATTACKED! I am glad I joined and got to get all of the sage information from our contributitors. Thanks to you all! I will look at all of your contribuitutions and apologize again for making anyone ANGRY OR OFFENDING THEM!

Being new to Tennessee I expect this from where I came from, not from all of the wonderful people that have helped to educate me and help me navigate this state that I am new to.

Thank you all for your help

I am greatful!

[Guest carbonarcher]

So my next question,

If I post my opionion, and just MY OPIONION, is this the way that I will be treated? Being new to the state? and Feeling so Proud to be a Tennessee resident?

[Guest carbonarcher]

Is there rules to protocol for our members?

[Guest carbonarcher]

Jreedesq.

You are one of the chosen few, and I thank you for your service! You are the guy I would call! If things got ugly!

I know, leave it to the new guy who happens to be a Yankee! LOL!!

Sorry all for the hard reading that I started, just stating what I thought! I think that it has been healthy and food for though for all members who have read this!

Thank you all!

[Guest 270win]

I'll give ya'll an example of a justifiable shoot that is a mess for the police officers involved in a state that does give some civil protection like Tennessee since the early 1980's.

A teenager was killed probably a couple years ago in West Memphis, AR by police who believed the teenager pointed a weapon at them. The teenager had a toy gun. If I recall the shooting was also in poor light. The officers believed the teenager posed a threat and stopped the threat. AR State Police and another county prosecutor were brought in to avoid bias and said this was a justifiable homicide, so no criminal charges. I believe even the feds investigated the shooting and again basically justifiable homicide.

Now, a fed court has cleared way for this boy's family to proceed in civil court against West Memphis PD and I'm sure individually the officers involved. The city i'm sure is seen as a 'deep pocket'. It will be interesting to see what happens with the whole mess.

[laktrash]

I'm not getting to this but

I can see how someone with a "modified" big-block fire breathing camaro maybe with slicks would have a rougher time in court for an accident or maybe some redlight tag. opposed to a bone stock rice grinder. I know its an redneck analgy. Nothing wrong with a nice hot rod "modified 69 vette here" but I see how it could be played wrong in court

Hope this not too far off track

[mikegideon]

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/images/stories/journal/Network_2010-9.pdf

Everyone should read this at least once.

Mike

Wow. the prosecuter needed to be shot worse than Skank and the boyfriend