1911 question

[A.J. Holst]

What's the difference between a "70" and an "80"

Thanks!

[leroy]

...What's the difference between a "70" and an "80"

Thanks!

Good explanation here:

Colt Series 70 Firing System - 1911Forum

The 70 series is the original firing set up for a 1911. Hammer, grip safety, thumb safety, rebounding firing pin without an additional "firing pin" safety. The 80 series has an additional firing pin safety. The old timers (...most of em like me...) didnt like the series 80 because it was harder to take down and added a small bit to the trgger pull effort.

Hope this helps.

leroy

PS-- The series 70 also had a fingered front bushing that was supposed to improve accuracy. Thats a minor thing when compared to the firing group changes in the series 80's.

Edited October 25, 2010 by leroy
added note

[mk19]

firing pin safety....comes to mind

[Guest carbonarcher]

They say that you can get a better trigger with the series 70. I have two series 80's, now a days, its a matter do you want the extra safety or not? I have awesome triggers with the 80's. Go to the shop and try them out.

Good luck!

[eapking]

Series 80 safety, aka "Schwartz Safety" if I'm not mistaken.

[timcalhoun]

They say that you can get a better trigger with the series 70. I have two series 80's, now a days, its a matter do you want the extra safety or not? I have awesome triggers with the 80's. Go to the shop and try them out.

Good luck!

It depends on what "better" means. If you are talking about a good carry trigger then it is no big deal getting an 80's trigger to feel great at 4-5lbs. But once you start to get below 3lb it gets harder to get them there. I can do a trigger at or under 2lb pretty easily with a series 70 but I wont even try that with a series 80.

[Steelharp]

Series 80 safety, aka "Schwartz Safety" if I'm not mistaken.

May the Schwartz be with you!

Actually, they are different. The Schwartz safety was connected to the action of the grip safety; the Series 80 style is part of the trigger assembly. Schwartz, bad; breaks and really screws things up. Series 80, not so bad at all.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Steelharp

[eapking]

May the Schwartz be with you!

Actually, they are different. The Schwartz safety was connected to the action of the grip safety; the Series 80 style is part of the trigger assembly. Schwartz, bad; breaks and really screws things up. Series 80, not so bad at all.

Huh, thanks for the clarification. Had thought those were synonomous.

[eapking]

Steelharp...

Didn't doubt you for a minute. I went hunting for more info and found this great article on the Swartz (I even had the wrong spelling) vs. the Series 80 FPB...

Handgun safeties; the firing pin safety: second time around | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

[redstategunnut]

Series 80 safety, aka "Schwartz Safety" if I'm not mistaken.

A Series 80 is not the same as a Schwartz safety. Kimber series II use a Schwartz safety. Colt Series 80 safeties are different.

I prefer a Series 70 with fewer parts to fail.

[1gewehr]

Actually us 'old-timers' don't like either the Series 80 OR Series 70. The firing pin safety is un-necessary and as said before interferes with proper trigger operation. The 'fingers' on Series 70 pistols are prone to breakage. And when they break, they typically lock the slide from going into battery (won't fire). So to 'heck' with them both. I'll stick with the original 1911A1 series.

[timcalhoun]

Actually us 'old-timers' don't like either the Series 80 OR Series 70. The firing pin safety is un-necessary and as said before interferes with proper trigger operation. The 'fingers' on Series 70 pistols are prone to breakage. And when they break, they typically lock the slide from going into battery (won't fire). So to 'heck' with them both. I'll stick with the original 1911A1 series.

Sorry, what are "fingers"? Maybe I need another cup of coffee? LOL

[leroy]

...Sorry, what are "fingers"? Maybe I need another cup of coffee? LOL...

Tim:_____________

RE: Series 70 Colt "fingers".

If you ever saw one of the "old"(...original...) series 70s barrel and bushing assemblies taken out of the slide; you would see a "fingered" bushing sitting on a rounded hump machined into the series 70 barrel. It had 3 or 4 prongs (...cant remember how many...) about 3/32 wide with a short solid bushing (...abour 3/16 or so...) long similar to a "flat" or cylindrical bushing. The "fingers" sit on a rounded hump machined on the barrel. The idea was to have the "fingers" reach and squeeze the barrel a bit when the slide went into battery (...it put tension on the barrel and link assembly and shoved the barrel lugs snug against the slide...) and "improve" accuracy. It appears to me it was a "quick and dirty" way to claim improved accuracy. The "real story" (...looks like to me, anyway...) was it eliminated the need to hand fit the barrel and bushing.

Leroy

[timcalhoun]

Tim:_____________

RE: Series 70 Colt "fingers".

If you ever saw one of the "old"(...original...) series 70s barrel and bushing assemblies taken out of the slide; you would see a "fingered" bushing sitting on a rounded hump machined into the series 70 barrel. It had 3 or 4 prongs (...cant remember how many...) about 3/32 wide with a short solid bushing (...abour 3/16 or so...) long similar to a "flat" or cylindrical bushing. The "fingers" sit on a rounded hump machined on the barrel. The idea was to have the "fingers" reach and squeeze the barrel a bit when the slide went into battery (...it put tension on the barrel and link assembly and shoved the barrel lugs snug against the slide...) and "improve" accuracy. It appears to me it was a "quick and dirty" way to claim improved accuracy. The "real story" (...looks like to me, anyway...) was it eliminated the need to hand fit the barrel and bushing.

Leroy

Thanks Leroy, I learned something new today, so it is already a good day.

Sounds like a really bad idea, and I suspect you are right about the true reason behind it.

Thanks again.

[leroy]

Thanks Tim.

....Sounds like a really bad idea, and I suspect you are right about the true reason behind it.

The "bad idea" is that on some guns (....those shot a lot; which is a relative term...); sometimes the fingers would break and you would have to redo the barrel and bushing. As i remember, the Gold Cups had solid bushings.

Leroy

[Warbird]

I shoot a series 70 style custom 1911. The trigger on it is very good. I can shoot a series 80 1911, that I am familiar with, in self defense drills as well as I can a series 70 1911. If you are a precision shooter, such as bullseye, you might notice a difference. But for 99% of people, they will never know the difference. If you say I can't shoot this series 80 gun, that has a good trigger to being with and that you have shot a bit, then it is likely you are just a piss poor shooter. The firing pin safety might make a difference in emergency field stripping, but again for most they will never know the difference.

I have heard of these 'finger' failures, but have never seen one yet after watching 1911 shooters shoot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange. Any part can fail. you are as likely to have this failure as you are of having the slides or frames crack on the softer steel of the old 1911's. My 1911 made in 1917 (which has been in my family since 1917) has yet to crack in thousands of rounds. It might though one day. Every shot makes it more likely any part will fail.

[leroy]

To add to Warbird's post:

...I have heard of these 'finger' failures, but have never seen one yet after watching 1911 shooters shoot literally hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange.

I've never actually seen one broke; but i dont have any buddies (....or myself, for that matter...) that have put more than a thousand or so rounds thru one (...we have 3; 2- 45's and a super...). My Government Model and Commander shoot better than i can (...which aint too good...).

Regards,

Leroy

[JDM175]

I have a series 80 that I have had for 15 years and recently experienced problems with the firing pin safety mainly light firing pin strikes due to dragging by the firing pin plunger. From what I have read this can occur in high round count pistols. I chose to pull out all of the series 80 parts and install the shim. Since the mod I have put about 1500 rounds downrange with no issues.

For those interested in the workings of the series 80 here is a good diagram:

Colt Series 80 Firing Pin Block

Also for a good write up on series 80 vs 70 and the whole history to include the fingered bushing and more check out this thread on “The world’s finest close quarter combat weaponâ€

Frequently asked questions about Colt 1911 pistols - 1911Forum

[LngRngShtr]

Guess it's time for a "Hell,I was there " story or 2

I have a Series 70 Gold Cup top end.. it USED TO HAVE a finger or collet style bushing, all the Gold Cup Series '70s I have seen suffer this problem,..until it breaks which mine did in a PPC match (1992-3 I think) while feeding a live round in,.. split at the side and acted like a lock washer so we removed firing pin etc. and carefully pressed with a flat head screwdriver to get the bushing back together and close the slide,.. then we carefully racked the slide to extract the live round... now there's a KART NM bushing like the originals wore and all is well..still have a faded scar on my left palm from trying to "tap" the slide with a Wichita rear sight closed....

Series 80,.. used to own and carry a Colt Officers Model in Stainless Steel,.. almost had to use it one night,.. the next weekend at the range I decided I should practice more,.. loaded up and disengaged thumb safety, pressed trigger and

CLICK immediate failure drill , tap rack repeat,

6 times,..6 CLICKs all rounds exhibited a small dimple on the primer not a good feeling....

off to Mike LaRocca in Worcester Mass... where it was discovered the lever didn't lift the plunger far enough and slowed the firing pin,.

new set of safety gear and I got to watch the master at work.. a few years later I traded it for an A4 Springfield,..

I am of the school that JMB pretty much had it figured out and it doesn't need these 2 "enhancements"

John..

As Warbird said,.. any part can fail... most semi-autos today use a variant of the 80 Series plunger firing pin block GLOCK, S&W etc.

I guess I was just unlucky twice... so you all should be safe.. if you play the odds

Edited November 2, 2010 by LngRngShtr

[timcalhoun]

I stopped using the series 80 FP safety and the Swartz (or however you spell it) system long ago. I have seen one of my Kimber II series fail. It worked perfectly in my hand but when a friend of mine would shoot it......no bang, only a click. His hands are bigger and maybe a little more meaty than mine and he could find the area where the grip safety disengaged but the FP block was not completely out of the way. I'm not foolish enough to believe that I will always have the perfect grip on the gun if heaven forbid I need to use it in an emergency. Also, I now adjust my grip safeties so that very little movement will disengage them but still works perfectly.

[Warbird]

The grip safeties are in general a pain at times. The Kimber uses the grip safety/firing pin block together. I am not a fan of that design. I shoot a thumbs forward grip and being left handed and riding the thumb safety I have at times not disengaged the safety completely. So even on a non-series 80 1911 this can be an issue, even with a memory bumped grip safety. I agree that they should disengage as soon as possible. The Texas Rangers used to tie a leather strap around their 1911's to fully engage the grip safety at all times.

The series 70 guns w/ the fingers is pretty easily fixed with a good aftermarket barrel as was stated above. I also have a Kart on mine. I am certain some of these things break, the issues don't come from thin air. I just think they are often overblown and turned into more hysteria than is actually worthy of note. In this day of internet boards any issue seems to be amplified.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Warbird

[leroy]

Warbird:____________

I love this!! You know it drives the "safety" weenies wild and gives the defense lawyers apoplexy!!

...The Texas Rangers used to tie a leather strap around their 1911's to fully engage the grip safety at all times. ...

Ive heard of this solution too (...i like it...). In the "good ole days" you could have a gunsmith drill and pin the grip safety down too. I doubt you could get anyone to do it anymore. I like the Texas Ranger solution myself.

Keep up the good work.

Leroy

Edited November 2, 2010 by leroy
grammar and spelling!!!

[Steelharp]

I stopped using the series 80 FP safety and the Swartz (or however you spell it) system long ago... I'm not foolish enough to believe that I will always have the perfect grip on the gun if heaven forbid I need to use it in an emergency.

Alternatively, buy a Glock... (Sorry, I just HAD to!)

[timcalhoun]

Alternatively, buy a Glock... (Sorry, I just HAD to!)

Oh no you didn't.....

[Kano]

Hilton Yam

"Firing pin safeties typically fall into the Colt Series 80 pattern which are actuated by the trigger (Colt Series 80, Para Ordnance, Sig GSR) and the Swartz style safety which is actuated by the grip safety (Kimber, Smith & Wesson). Of all the firing pin safety mechanisms on the market, the original Colt Series 80 - in a Colt - is the most reliable of them all. The platforms utilizing the Swartz safety are a less than ideal choice across the board due to the inherent reliability problems of the design. The Swartz safety is extremely sensitive to the fit of the grip safety to the frame and the timing of the grip safety's trigger blocking arm. Tolerance issues can also lead to a Swartz safety that will time properly when the grip safety is depressed a certain way, and time differently when depressed a different way. This will typically be a product of loose fit of the grip safety to the frame tangs and/or loose fit of the thumb safety shaft through the grip safety. It is possible to have the grip safety timed such that the trigger will be able to release the sear well before the firing pin safety plunger has been moved far enough to clear the firing pin. Problems with improper timing of the Swartz safeties can lead to a situation where you get a "click" when you wanted a "bang." That's a serious problem. Unless department policy mandates a firing pin safety, I would choose a 1911 without one. It is possible to have a drop safe 1911 without the firing pin safety, and given the potential reliability problems with a poorly executed system, the perceived risk of drop safety is outweighed by the real risk of a failure to fire."