Hospital Carry

[Guest trigem]

I was at the hospital in Hopkinsville KY.today

Saw a man open carrying, when I went back out side I realized

there are no signs forbidding

I guess there aren't any fear mongers there:D

[Oh Shoot]

I was at the hospital in Hopkinsville KY.today

Saw a man open carrying, when I went back out side I realized

there are no signs forbidding

I guess there aren't any fear mongers there:D

AFAIK, KY does not have legally binding weapon posting provision like TN.

- OS

[dralarms]

AFAIK, KY does not have legally binding weapon posting provision like TN.

- OS

REally? so all they can do is ask you to leave?

[Oh Shoot]

REally? so all they can do is ask you to leave?

TN may be the only state that allows general posting that has a special penalty for simply carrying past the sign.

Ironically, if you are criminally carrying a gun without a permit, you can't be charged with carrying past a sign, so that saves ya $500 bucks, right there.

The other irony is that unlawful possession of a firearm is sometimes cheaper than the $500 a HCP holder could incur for merely carrying past a sign.

TN just keeps punishing the good guys.

- OS

[JayC]

$500 is cheap compared to TDOS revoking your permit if you're caught and charged for carrying past a sign... which they are currently required to do under the state law.. oh yeah and if they want it appears they can ban you for life from having a HCP.

TN firearms law is totally messed up when somebody who is illegally carrying a pistol is at less risk than those who receive a permit.

TN may be the only state that allows general posting that has a special penalty for simply carrying past the sign.

Ironically, if you are criminally carrying a gun without a permit, you can't be charged with carrying past a sign, so that saves ya $500 bucks, right there.

The other irony is that unlawful possession of a firearm is sometimes cheaper than the $500 a HCP holder could incur for merely carrying past a sign.

TN just keeps punishing the good guys.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...TN firearms law is totally messed up when somebody who is illegally carrying a pistol is at less risk than those who receive a permit.

It should probably be challenged some how on that very basis, too.

- OS

[Guest 270win]

I have not read anywhere of the highway patrol being required to revoke a handgun carry permit for walking past one of these 'properly' posted signs. The statute is punished by a fine only of five hundred dollars from my reading. Where is the case law for this? I'm not a lawyer.

I'm sure the highway patrol can say anyone is 'unsuitable' for any reason, but I think a sign is quite a stretch. Plus, do you not conceal your handgun right? Most of these signs are 'vague' in my view and if you get down to the nitty gritty anyone can claim he missed seeing one. It is a he said/she said silliness. Best to be quiet and not say a word and conceal well.

Yes, Kentucky is nice that these signs don't have any sort of 'criminal' penalty. I haven't heard of people in Tennessee being criminally charged. I'm assuming people are just asked to leave. This should be a legislative goal next year: Remove the sign criminal penalty and five hundred dollar fine.

[Oh Shoot]

I have not read anywhere of the highway patrol being required to revoke a handgun carry permit for walking past one of these 'properly' posted signs. The statute is punished by a fine only of five hundred dollars from my reading. Where is the case law for this? I'm not a lawyer....

No case law, since we've not heard of anyone being charged yet. But I suppose it will happen.

Yes, 39-17-1359 says "a fine only of $500".

However, 39-17-1352 says:

"The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by its records or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:

Has violated any other provision of §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360"

Note it says shall.

Btw, Michie is updated now.

- OS

Edited October 26, 2010 by OhShoot
wrong statute number

[Fallguy]

I'm going to guess one reason he may have been OCing is that KY is an OC without a permit state like several of the states out west.

As far as your permit and carry past a 39-17-1359 sign....as has been said, no known cases of someone charged with that so penalties beyond the $500 fine unknown. I admit it says in 39-17-1352(a)(6) that any violation of 39-17-1351 - 39-17-1360 is cause. But it says to suspend or revoke....so it doesn't have to be revoked...could just be suspended for a short time.

[JayC]

I'm going to guess one reason he may have been OCing is that KY is an OC without a permit state like several of the states out west.

As far as your permit and carry past a 39-17-1359 sign....as has been said, no known cases of someone charged with that so penalties beyond the $500 fine unknown. I admit it says in 39-17-1352(a)(6) that any violation of 39-17-1351 - 39-17-1360 is cause. But it says to suspend or revoke....so it doesn't have to be revoked...could just be suspended for a short time.

Or it could be revoked for life... and it's not a judge who decides which or for how long, it's a staff attorney at TDOS from the documents released in a certain case which shall remain unnamed

While there doesn't appear to be any case law, there are 2 reported incidents of TDOS using 39-17-1352a in both cases even though a6 wasn't violated the suspensions appear to have no time limit.

I for sure don't think it's right that a government employee can decided to revoke my permit for life, but if I'm carrying illegally I can apply the next day (after my legal issues are worked out) for a permit and not be denied by TDOS.

[Fallguy]

Or it could be revoked for life... and it's not a judge who decides which or for how long, it's a staff attorney at TDOS from the documents released in a certain case which shall remain unnamed

While there doesn't appear to be any case law, there are 2 reported incidents of TDOS using 39-17-1352a in both cases even though a6 wasn't violated the suspensions appear to have no time limit.

I for sure don't think it's right that a government employee can decided to revoke my permit for life, but if I'm carrying illegally I can apply the next day (after my legal issues are worked out) for a permit and not be denied by TDOS.

Well you can ask a judge to review the TDOS decision. I mean if you are intoxicated in a place that serves alcohol and it will cause your HCP to only be suspended for 3 years, hard to see how carry past 39-17-1359 would result in life revocation.

But I agree there are lots of things that need fixing....

[Guest 270win]

Yes, the unsaid name has been playing as his own attorney. He has, in my opinion, acted like a fool in public and brought a lot of trouble and attention to himself, kind of like playing with a snake and seeing if it will bite him.

I highly doubt the highway patrol would can a permit for life over a sign. You would first have to be convicted, which would first require you to be charged, again a very very hard thing to happen to a normal person concealing a normal handgun on his person. You do know an attorney? If you don't, you should if you are carrying a handgun in public. I have carried a snub concealed in many parts of the country without a problem. I have carried my snub in a clinic owned by a hospital with a halfway sign (not on all entrances). The nurse found out in the course of my exam and didn't care. I just smiled. People like the unsaid name in Nashville wouldn't have been as lucky as me because of his nutty demeanor. Act like a fool and you'll be treated like a fool is what I've been taught in life. I carried quite a bit without a license in Arkansas and never a problem.

[Guest mds3d]

No case law, since we've not heard of anyone being charged yet. But I suppose it will happen.

Yes, 39-17-1359 says "a fine only of $500".

However, 39-17-1321 says:

"The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by its records or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder:

Has violated any other provision of §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360"

Note it says shall.

Btw, Michie is updated now.

- OS

Could you help me out,

The quote you copied is not from 39-17-1321. That section only applies to "while under the influence of alcohol" I was unable to find your quote, maybe I am missing it though.

[Guest mds3d]

NM, I found it. It is in 39-17-1352

[JayC]

He is just 1 of the 2 cases I'm aware of... and I agree he hasn't been represented well in this matter

If TDOS can revoke a permit for life over acting like a fool in public but not breaking any law, they surely can do it for a violation of 1351-1360 both are covered under the same section of the law and there are no limits placed on TDOS in using 1352a (except if they become aware of a violation they shall revoke or suspend).

1352a leave sole discretion in the hands of a TDOS staff attorney, on whether to revoke or suspend, and while you could appeal any ruling to a judge, it would require a lot of time and money to do so, and frankly IMHO administrative judges are in the pocket of TDOS virtually every ruling in front of one is ruled in favor of TDOS.

As far as being convicted:

"The department shall suspend or revoke a handgun permit upon a showing by its records or other sufficient evidence that the permit holder

You'll note that it doesn't limit the revoking or suspension to just convictions... any 'sufficient evidence' is enough to revoke your permit. IANAL but I'm willing to bet that a simple letter along with a police report from a local PD claiming you carried past a sign would be enough for TDOS to revoke/suspend.

TDOS has way too much power under 1352a, and that is a law that needs to be fixed, before it gets used on somebody other than the person who shall not be named.

Yes, the unsaid name has been playing as his own attorney. He has, in my opinion, acted like a fool in public and brought a lot of trouble and attention to himself, kind of like playing with a snake and seeing if it will bite him.

I highly doubt the highway patrol would can a permit for life over a sign. You would first have to be convicted, which would first require you to be charged, again a very very hard thing to happen to a normal person concealing a normal handgun on his person. You do know an attorney? If you don't, you should if you are carrying a handgun in public. I have carried a snub concealed in many parts of the country without a problem. I have carried my snub in a clinic owned by a hospital with a halfway sign (not on all entrances). The nurse found out in the course of my exam and didn't care. I just smiled. People like the unsaid name in Nashville wouldn't have been as lucky as me because of his nutty demeanor. Act like a fool and you'll be treated like a fool is what I've been taught in life. I carried quite a bit without a license in Arkansas and never a problem.

Edited October 26, 2010 by JayC

[Oh Shoot]

NM, I found it. It is in 39-17-1352

Oops, sorry, revised my orig. post, thnx.

- OS