Question

[Guest Jvanhoosen]

Ok all I have a few questions for you all. I am currently in the process of purchasing a Walther pk 380 should be picking that up on Friday this week. Ok I know its a small caliber handgun to use for CC but I am a small guy. Now on to my question. I am now looking at a handgun to shoot IDPA and other competitions with. I currently have been looking at the Springfield xd in 9mm or 40 s&w. Just wondering if anyone has one of those and how you like it. I don't want to disrespect the glock guys because Glocks are great guns just not for me. So if you all could give me some feedback on the XD that would be great.

[DaveTN]

Not enough information.

I’m not a Glock guy either, but what is it about the Glock that rules it out? And have you looked at the M&P?

If this is strictly a competition gun I would go 9mm. If you might carry it regularly I would go .40S&W.

However… if all you want to know about is the XD, the only thing I can add is that the XD isn’t a Springfield.

I don’t see a question about the .380; so I won’t comment on it.

[mikegideon]

Not enough information.

I’m not a Glock guy either, but what is it about the Glock that rules it out? And have you looked at the M&P?

If this is strictly a competition gun I would go 9mm. If you might carry it regularly I would go .40S&W.

However… if all you want to know about is the XD, the only thing I can add is that the XD isn’t a Springfield.

I don’t see a question about the .380; so I won’t comment on it.

You beat me to it

[Guest Jvanhoosen]

Opps sorry about the 380 question I got wrapped up with the xd. My question is would you carry a 380 for CC or something larger? I have looked at the Glocks and have owned a glock I personally just didnt like the way it felt. I have not looked at the m&p, I was also looking at the walther p99 and pps.

[DaveTN]

My question is would you carry a 380 for CC or something larger?

Something larger.

[Guest bkelm18]

Personally, I'd go with something larger. At least a 9mm. That being said, a .380 in hand is better than nothing. It's still a very capable caliber as long as you choose the right ammo and you know it's limitations.

[Will Carry]

Since you have already purchased the Walther, I would say it is a great concealed carry pistol! The 380 cartridge has come a long way since the James Bond movies of the 60s. I carry a 380 pocket pistol and use Cor-Bon Powerball ammo.

I own an XDm-40 and an XD-45. They are so much fun to shoot! I also own a couple of Glocks, great guns too!

I also like the M&Ps. I like'em all. Is this not a great country! Where a citizen has the right to bare arms and defend themselves. There are just too many pistols out there to own just one.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Will Carry

[Guest peacexxl]

Ok all I have a few questions for you all. I am currently in the process of purchasing a Walther pk 380 should be picking that up on Friday this week. Ok I know its a small caliber handgun to use for CC but I am a small guy. Now on to my question. I am now looking at a handgun to shoot IDPA and other competitions with. I currently have been looking at the Springfield xd in 9mm or 40 s&w. Just wondering if anyone has one of those and how you like it. I don't want to disrespect the glock guys because Glocks are great guns just not for me. So if you all could give me some feedback on the XD that would be great.

Believe me, I know your feeling. Glocks just aren't the right fit for me. I do carry an XD 40, 4" barrel and I love it. It is great at the range, I've let it get dirtier than any of my other pistols and so far, I can't get it to jam. Threw on some fiber optic sites and it is just a great gun. Some people don't like the trigger but I didn't have a problem with it out of the box and it has only gotten better with time.

As far as a carry gun for a smaller person, I'd say look at the Taurus PT709 if you wan't a larger caliber. Plenty of Taurus haters out there but I own 3 of them and they have all serverd me well to this point. I have never owned a .380 so I a cannot speak to that particular caliber, but I can say that I love my Springfield Armory XD40.

[Guest TnRebel]

Not so long ago, the top ammo choice for pocket pistols seemed to be the exotic “frangible” loads sold by Glaser and MagSafe. These rounds offer complete fragmentation immediately after impact, resulting in a large but very shallow wound. Besides being absurdly expensive ($3/shot), a very strong argument has been made by the people over at www.firearmstactical.com as to why it will not work as advertised. In general, I concur with their reasoning, and urge any interested in the details to read through the info on their website.

With the waning in popularity of the exotic loads, many have decided to carry FMJ (or some other type of non-expanding ammo like TMJ, FNEB, etc.) in their .25ACP, .32ACP, and even .380ACP pocket pistols. They cite the “FBI Protocol” that requires 12+” of penetration as a mandatory requirement for any type of ammo to be used for self-defense. The facts do seem apparent: .25ACP and .32ACP are not able to reliably expand and penetrate to this depth, and .380ACP is also questioned by many.

So why then do I choose to load all my pocket pistols with JHP ammo when I don’t even dispute its inability to penetrate? Let me explain…

First of all, the 12”-16” of penetration is a good thing in a self-defense shooting. Why, since so few people are thick enough to require so deep a wound? The answer is that the deeper penetrative tendencies allow bullets to pass through intermediate objects encountered on their path to the actual target. Drywall, wood, auto body panels or glass; these are all things that law enforcement must consider when choosing a load for their sidearm. Speaking of arms, the assailant’s own limbs are perhaps the most commonly cited “intermediate objects”. Let me say that having a pistol with the capability to shoot through such things and still expand is a good thing. Ammo is available in all of the popular combat chamberings (9x19 and up) which can apparently accomplish this sort of thing in gelatin testing, and I carry ammo that will do this in my Kel-Tec P-40 and Glock 29.

The “rub” comes when pocket pistol ammo enters the equation, and does not have enough energy to do both. Those who favor penetration first readily sacrifice any hope of expansion to reach the quasi-magical depth of 12”. The first issue I have is that I do not need 12+” for my pocket pistol to be effective. For one thing, my need for penetration of intermediate objects in a self-defense pistol is likely to be less than a policeman or FBI Agent. Contrast the way LEO’s (law enforcement officers) use a pistol with a citizen using a CCW pistol for defense. LEO’s draw their sidearms to hold and arrest suspects, often without firing a shot. This is an “offensive” use of the pistol that doesn’t necessarily need to be at the imminent death level of alert that usually forces a citizen with a weapons permit to clear the holster. What is different is the element of surprise: LEO’s are typically expected to have firearms and usually carry them openly. A suspect at odds with the authorities is most certainly far more concerned with being shot by a policeman than the person they target as a victim of a violent crime. They therefore try and keep a greater distance, use cover if possible, and cover up when encountering obviously armed law enforcement.

[Guest TnRebel]

For a real good Wet Pack Test on most carry ammo check here .

The Kel-Tec Range :: View topic - NEW BALLISTICS SECTION, PART 1

http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=6469

[Guest Jvanhoosen]

I work in a major OR in Nashville and see many many GSW's from both police and other people shooting. I have seen people come in with 1 GSW that ended up being fatal, I have also seen people come in with 8 GSW's and walked out 3 days later. None of the one shots were head shots, but center mass. The 8 GSW was with a 45 at close range. So in my opinion it is all about shot placement as opposed to size and type of ammo.

[mikegideon]

I work in a major OR in Nashville and see many many GSW's from both police and other people shooting. I have seen people come in with 1 GSW that ended up being fatal, I have also seen people come in with 8 GSW's and walked out 3 days later. None of the one shots were head shots, but center mass. The 8 GSW was with a 45 at close range. So in my opinion it is all about shot placement as opposed to size and type of ammo.

Wow! Was his name Mongo by any chance? I'm surprised he didn't bleed out

[Punisher84]

Wow! Was his name Mongo by any chance? I'm surprised he didn't bleed out

Hur Hur Hur Mongo eat bullets.

I've seen my share of GSWs as well and I've only seen a few that were fatal. Now, I don't work at a trauma center, but we get alot of "dump and runs".

[DaveTN]

Glaser safety slugs have never been the “top ammo choice” for small caliber guns.

Glaser safety Slugs were designed for a specific application; shooting people on airplanes without the bullet going through them and killing other passengers or compromising the integrity of a pressurized aircraft cabin.

There was a move to outlaw the purchase of these rounds by the general public. The reason for the move to outlaw them was because they became known as the “Surgeons Nightmare”. If you were shot with a Glaser there was a very good possibility you would die; but you would die later at the hospital.

When people were looking for a good round for a mouse gun they looked at Glaser because they thought that if people wanted them outlawed they must be a wicked deadly round. You still see some people posting that nonsense on the forums today because they don’t know any better. Truth is, Glaser is a terrible SD round; I can’t think of one that would be worse. Couple that with a .380 and you have a pretty useless round.

An argument can be made that a .380 is better than nothing. An argument can be made that a .380 will kill someone. If you are shooting people that are not shooting back; you might be fine. But what if you are facing an armed opponent? Does anyone want to try to make an argument that a .380 is a good round to make an armed opponent unwilling or unable to fire his weapon at you?

I have responded to many shootings and seen people shot with a variety of calibers. A .380 was the only round I have had handed to me by the victim of a shooting after he picked it out of his side. I have also responded to shootings where someone that was shot with a .22 was as dead as could be. But that doesn’t make it a good carry round.

So in my opinion it is all about shot placement as opposed to size and type of ammo.

A .22 through the heart or forehead at close range would probably kill someone instantly. Do you think with the adrenaline rush and stress of a shooting you could make those shots? I’m not a Doctor so I don’t know if those .22 shots would kill them instantly. But I have faced an armed suspect in a shooting and in my opinion I don’t think most people could place their shots that carefully. I wasn’t able to.

[Will Carry]

8 Shoots with 45acp and he walk out of the hospital 3 days later! WOW. Did he stop his attack? That's what it's all about. Stopping the attack, whether the attacker dies or not is inconsiquential.

[mikegideon]

I read the FBI paper on the subject. The only thing that will stop someone in their tracks is a shot to the central nervous system. Shooting somebody in the heart may stop them because of the psychological impact, but there's no reason they can't keep going until the blood drains or runs out of oxygen. I would think that most folks would stop because of the pain, or a sudden blast of common sense.

[DaveTN]

I would think that most folks would stop because of the pain, or a sudden blast of common sense.

I have not been shot, but it is my understanding that it takes awhile to realize pain; especially when the adrenalin is pumping or a person is drugged.

We need a volunteer for a test.

[mikegideon]

With drugs like PCP, there's no chance of pain or common sense. I'm thinking an LEO is more likely to get into one of those encounters than a regular Joe. A typical thug, with or without a little crack in him, is probably gonna realize he's been shot.

[Will Carry]

If you can shatter their hip bone they will stop in their tracks. Most larger cailbers from 38sp/9mm up will do it. I don't know what the hip bone is called. That's according to Masaad Ayoob-i-one-canobi.

[mikegideon]

If you can shatter their hip bone they will stop in their tracks. Most larger cailbers from 38sp/9mm up will do it. I don't know what the hip bone is called. That's according to Masaad Ayoob-i-one-canobi.

But you may miss and hit 'em in the kajones.

[Will Carry]

Sounds like a win win. Ever since I heard Masaad say that I have started shooting low.

[mikegideon]

Where did you find targets with hips and kajones? Are you using one of those standup Kenny Chesney cutouts?

[DaveTN]

Where did you find targets with hips and kajones? Are you using one of those standup Kenny Chesney cutouts?

[DaveTN]

Sounds like a win win. Ever since I heard Masaad say that I have started shooting low.

Where did you hear Massad Ayoob give this information that made you decided that you would train to shoot for a person’s hips?

[Punisher84]

Never heard Massad say anything about it, but I was trained by an instructor to shoot for the groin/hip area AFTER a few rounds center mass did not stop someone. I guess if you're unfortunate enough to deal with either someone on PCP or wearing a vest. The idea was that there are alot of major arteries in that area as well as bones that help quite a bit with mobility. Take that out or cut a few arteries and I guess they'll at least bleed out quicker.

Granted this is not something I would think would be likely, but it was a nice "well if all the above doesn't work" moment of training. I still train to hit center mass though.