Recruiters told they can accept openly gay applicants.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

I take the bible with a grain of salt. I believe it is a guidebook on life for Christians, but one cannot forget it was written by MEN and has been altered over many years. That being said I'm not going to continue down the religious side of the thread because I don't think this has to do with religion. This has to do with gays serving openly in the military and the opinions of their peers.

Thats your opinion and I respect you for sharing it. Its your choice to believe in the Bible or not and I am not here to force anyone but rather sharing my religious viewpoint. But I agree that this isnt the place for a religious argument.

Once again let the soldiers pick.

[Daniel]

I want to make clear that I am not 100% comfortable taking a shower with a guy I 100% know to be gay. I would feel uncomfortable. I would also get the **** over it.

I think if we are going to have a policy it should be that no one says which sexuality they are. I have a problem with otherwise qualified individuals being kicked out because someone outed them. We have standards of conduct and behavior that could easily be enforced to limit someone wanting to just flaunt that they are gay vs someone just wanting to serve.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Daniel

[Guest Jamie]

Once again let the soldiers pick.

Soldiers don't pick, they follow orders.

[mikegideon]

(without reading 10 pages of comments)

I've heard that, if they recruit someone that is "openly gay" they have to warn them that DADT could be reenacted. Hrm, slippery slope of assumption there. I see a lawsuit hungry individual possibly taking advantage of this as a civil rights violation of some sort.

.

It is just a ruling by a judge. It needs to get fixed in the right way, but Washington can't seem to be able to pour piss out of a boot.

[mikegideon]

Soldiers don't pick, they follow orders.

Ah... trying the sanity route again, eh? Cue religilous argument.

[Daniel]

Also with regards to the DADT survey the DoD sent out. Who do you think is more likely to take that survey? Someone for or against repeal?

[McAllyn]

Personally I think it should be up to the soldiers. I just havent seen anything yet that says this is what the soldiers want beyond a few peoples personal accounts of what they think the soldiers want. If the soldiers are all for it then be my guest. However if they are against it in light of the sacrifice they are making and the already tremendous stress level associated with active combat I dont think we should add one more worry to the situation.

I thought the point here was a good debate so I am making one case and you another. No reason to try and get too personal

Not having served, I cannot say for sure, but to the best of my knowledge the military is not run as a democracy. Soldiers do what they are told, not asked if they think it's a good idea.

Mac

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Trigem, with as many gays and pedophiles as there apparently are in the clergy, I can't really see where god's gonna mind a few in the military...

Hilarious!!!!

[McAllyn]

Well if you accept the King James Version of the Bible it uses the term abomination to describe homosexuality...A term it doesnt use to describe other sins so arguably homosexuality is not "a sin is a sin".

It is from my understanding God will forgive your sins if you accept him and repent of your sins ie; turn from your sinful ways. Yes Christians will sin but if you truly accept and love God you will try to avoid sinning. That would include not actively engaging in a sinful lifestyle. Sure a person with homosexual tendencies may slip up but they can be forgiven if the meet the requisite requirements of belief and repentance.

Again, the Bible is not the recruiting manual for the American Military.

Mac

[McAllyn]

Fans of DADT, a scenario:

Soldier A is sitting with his buddies telling a story about "hooking up" with someone while on leave. Everyone laughs and pokes fun at each other. Good time had by all.

This happens, correct? No one causes an issue, higher ranking officials are not called in, and no one loses their job, right?

Soldier B is sitting with his buddies telling a story about "hooking up" with a dude. One guy freaks out and tells a senior officer that Soldier B is gay.

Soldier B is rousted, probably beaten up or somehow otherwise molested, then sent packing. I assume this is how it has gone in the past.

Regardless of your comfort level with the acts of either soldier, how is this equal treatment in the eyes of the law, not to mention military law?

[Guest mustangdave]

Here's a thought....ever asked a gay friend/aqaintence...WTF? What is the big deal with you gays...Why do they want EVERYONE to know they're GAY. The answer I got was...He wanted others to know WHO he was. I told him...dude...we know WHO you are...WHAT you are is GAY...and most of your friends and coworkers could probably care less. He just looked at me all confused...

[Smith]

I've not served , but IMO all these post are way off point. The morality issue aside, open gays in the military is the same issue as women in combat. Turinging hard edge, task focused, on the limit, soldiers into enlisted men/women making sure they are culturaly relevant and politically correct to something that does not further the goal and aim of the military is the problem. This is why we will struggle to win wars from now on. We try to fight without offending anyone. Hasn't worked in Vietnam, Afgahnistan, Balkans, Iraq, ............. and it won't work within our own military.

and yes Homosexuality is in fact is a perversion. You can't logically argue it any otherway. Choosing to go against the very nature of your being to be something that is the opposite of what you are is a perversion. This hold true for anything that fits in that category.

and before we start with the "hate", "narrow minded", "ignorant" name stuff argue logic and facts in regards to the military not San Franciso emotionalism.

[Punisher84]

Here's a thought....ever asked a gay friend/aqaintence...WTF? What is the big deal with you gays...Why do they want EVERYONE to know they're GAY. The answer I got was...He wanted others to know WHO he was. I told him...dude...we know WHO you are...WHAT you are is GAY...and most of your friends and coworkers could probably care less. He just looked at me all confused...

I don't know any "activist gays" that are just like "I'M GAY LOVE ME AND ACCEPT ME!!!!!!!!" I just know people that are like anyone else, don't want to be hassled because of who they are. Kinda like gun owners, republicans, christians...

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Ah... trying the sanity route again, eh? Cue religilous argument.

Again while my position is obviously influenced by my moral positions (as are everyone elses) my argument is not a religious one. Yes soldiers receive orders from other soldiers. My point is the military should be allowed to decide the issue not civilian political powers. i personally think the top military brass should consider the opinions of their subordinates but again the military brass should choose not you, me, or a civilian judge.

[Guest Jamie]

Choosing to go against the very nature of your being to be something that is the opposite of what you are is a perversion.

Then it's quite possible that forcing a gay person to conform to heterosexual standards is the perversion then, if the doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. are right and it's just how/what they are, and not a conscious choice.

[Guest Jamie]

My point is the military should be allowed to decide the issue not civilian political powers.

But those are the people who always make decisions for the military.... well, until our government becomes a military dictatorship, anyway.

[mikegideon]

Then it's quite possible that forcing a gay person to conform to heterosexual standards is the perversion then, if the doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. are right and it's just how/what they are, and not a conscious choice.

That would be correct.

[Guest Jamie]

That would be correct.

Yeah, but since it kicks the emotional BS and opinion right in the nut sack, nobody who hates or even dislikes gays is gonna accept it. Especially if it also torpedoes their chosen religious standards.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

But those are the people who always make decisions for the military.... well, until our government becomes a military dictatorship, anyway.

Not quite. The civilian government has tended to (rightfully so IMHO) give deference to the military on making its own regulations. While the civilian government should have some authority I dont think this is an area that requires. Sexual orientation is not a protected class generally (think Title VII).

On a side-note what are peoples thoughts on allow transgender soldiers?

[Smith]

Then it's quite possible that forcing a gay person to conform to heterosexual standards is the perversion then, if the doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, etc. are right and it's just how/what they are, and not a conscious choice.

That's hardly fact. Take into account that it is a heavily studied filed of the above mentioned fileds of study and you make my point. As to the second part, just becasue I may be born with a natural penchant for stealing (ie) doesn't mean I'm not held accountable for my choices. Somehow I don't see the judge buying that argument.

[mikegideon]

Yeah, but since it kicks the emotional BS and opinion right in the nut sack, nobody who hates or even dislikes gays is gonna accept it. Especially if it also torpedoes their chosen religious standards.

But... religion is not a choice. There is only one right way, and it's mine.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Yeah, but since it kicks the emotional BS and opinion right in the nut sack, nobody who hates or even dislikes gays is gonna accept it. Especially if it also torpedoes their chosen religious standards.

IMO it doesnt torpedoe Christianity necessarily. The Bible says all men were born sinful. For some it may be a propensity for violence, others drugs and alcohol, others homosexuality. However this doesnt mean the Bible says you have free reign to indulge in these tendency but rather are required to exhibit self control. So yes you can be born with a tendency/desire and still be required to control/limit it.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

But... religion is not a choice. There is only one right way, and it's mine.

Everyone believes their view is correct...Why else would they hold that view???

[mikegideon]

Everyone believes their view is correct...

You're speakin' the truth there

[Guest Jamie]

But... religion is not a choice. There is only one right way, and it's mine.

Uh huh...

I guess at this point I should make it clear that I really don't give a flyin' rat's ass whether gays, women, or anyone else is allowed into the military or not. It just doesn't make any difference to me, one way or the other.

However, the reasons behind the choice do.

If the decision is made logically and rationally, then fine, no problem. However, if it's made with emotionalism, fear, bigotry, or based on someone's personal opinion only... Then someone needs to be raising hell and getting it changed, and the decision-makers need to be tarred and feathered... or something.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Jamie