Recruiters told they can accept openly gay applicants.

[McAllyn]

Why do we separate men and women then? It is likely because their is a KNOWN sexual attraction between these individuals and some members of the opposite sex.

You keep asking the same silly question about why men and women shouldn't shower together? How many answers do you want? This issue has nothing to do with inter-gender cohabitation. You do realize that men and women are totally different members of the same specie, correct?

Mac

[McAllyn]

I think what happens is that if you are not part of the group having the problem, you don't really see it as a problem and the status quo is okay with you. That is why change seems to come so slowly to people who really need it.

As far as the issue at hand, I've never been gay and never served, but I think that it is not an issue "HEY LOOK AT ME. i'M GAY AND YOU HAVE TO LIKE IT". It is more about, if you can serve your country and then go home to your wife and children and be happy, then why can't I serve my country, then go home to the person I love or hang out with friends that I feel comfortable with and be happy, without worrying that if someone sees me enjoying my life, I may lose my carrer and my oppourtunity to serve a country that I clearly love and am willing to lay down my life for.

Praise your lord, someone seems to get it.

Mac

[Guest mustangdave]

What about the regulation regarding women on submarines that was recently changed by the Navy itself IIRC?

Imagine HOT RACKING...with the cute blonde....

[McAllyn]

Imagine HOT RACKING...with the cute blonde....

Tried it... blew out my ACL, and developed an over-bite. I'll pass.

Mac

[Guest db99wj]

I think what happens is that if you are not part of the group having the problem, you don't really see it as a problem and the status quo is okay with you. That is why change seems to come so slowly to people who really need it.

As far as the issue at hand, I've never been gay and never served, but I think that it is not an issue "HEY LOOK AT ME. i'M GAY AND YOU HAVE TO LIKE IT". It is more about, if you can serve your country and then go home to your wife and children and be happy, then why can't I serve my country, then go home to the person I love or hang out with friends that I feel comfortable with and be happy, without worrying that if someone sees me enjoying my life, I may lose my carrer and my oppourtunity to serve a country that I clearly love and am willing to lay down my life for.

See post #166 that I posted. That, in my opinion, is the real problem. I agree with your statement, but, again, In my opinion, this is a political driven issue that comes up time after time...during the election periods, in order to buy/gain/win votes. They pander to the groups they belelive they have the best chance of winning votes from. Homosexuals are typically more liberal leaning and the liberal democrats typically pander to them. Right or wrong, that happens, and is not exclusive to gays, other groups, black, women, hispanic, etc. Also it is not exclusive to liberal democrats.

The shower thing, I can understand some of the concerns, but as you posted, don't really care due to me not being in anymore, I'm guessing there were or could have been some in my unit, didn't care then, didn't think about it then either. I don't see this as a major problem, however, I can see the issue that can come up because of it.

Personally, I don't agree with it,but I don't condemn anyone for it. The flamboyant types get on my nerves, I don't want to see it.

Edited October 20, 2010 by db99wj

[Guest db99wj]

I would want to see his DD-214 for proof....

Who's Kwick's? Was he in the military?

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

You keep asking the same silly question about why men and women shouldn't shower together? How many answers do you want? This issue has nothing to do with inter-gender cohabitation. You do realize that men and women are totally different members of the same specie, correct?

Mac

My point is the logic that likely drives the reason for separation of sexes can be carried over to me argument on why gay and straight men should not be required to shower together. If you think the logic is outdated in both case that is fine by me. But to try and say one should follow the logic and the other shouldnt seems IDK illogical to me.

P.S. as a law student we are told to try to draw connections between things to try and support a position. Does that mean we are always right or correct in our connections? No. But that is just part of the game. I personally enjoy debating because it either A) helps me refine my argument and strengthen my position by adapting to the attacks at my positions weaknesses or change my mind to the better position held by another which in the end is a good thing as well.

[Guest Jamie]

Just because you and I have different opinions doesnt make either more or less intelligent sir

Hmm... Seems you didn't get smart enough to recognize a joke, while you were gone.

And yes time will have to tell but my thoughts are that flamboyant gays who want their sexual preference to be known havent joined in part because of the rule. If it is removed maybe they will join now that they can freely express their sexual preference. Maybe they wont even go into combat roles but possibly wish to serve in traditionally more feminine roles

And maybe all military barracks will get re-decorated in some shade other than O.D. green... Who knows? ( Yes, it's a "gay" joke. Or maybe even a gay joke... )

My guess though, is that anybody who does join will still have to conform to the rules, and learn to live in an environment that is NOT a democracy... just as they do now.

Also, folks who are paranoid about showering in front of people of the same gender who might be eyeballin' their bits n' pieces will still have one very important option: Don't join.

Somehow I don't think recruitment numbers are going to significantly rise or fall because of the loss of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". Nor do I think there will be a higher number of people who join, then get kicked out for misbehaving or not following the rules.

In the end though, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

I wasnt quite sure if it was a joke or not so I responded. I tried to keep it polite in case it was just a joke. No hard feelings here

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Hmm... Seems you didn't get smart enough to recognize a joke, while you were gone.

And maybe all military barracks will get re-decorated in some shade other than O.D. green... Who knows? ( Yes, it's a "gay" joke. Or maybe even a gay joke... )

My guess though, is that anybody who does join will still have to conform to the rules, and learn to live in an environment that is NOT a democracy... just as they do now.

Also, folks who are paranoid about showering in front of people of the same gender who might be eyeballin' their bits n' pieces will still have one very important option: Don't join.

Somehow I don't think recruitment numbers are going to significantly rise or fall because of the loss of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell". Nor do I think there will be a higher number of people who join, then get kicked out for misbehaving or not following the rules.

In the end though, we'll just have to wait and see.

Just out of curiosity...If you were gonna lose somebody as a result who would you prefer it to be: A) The straight person who doesnt want to shower with a homosexual or the homosexual person who wants to be able to make their homosexuality be known and still be allowed to shower with all the straight people of their gender?

[Guest Jamie]

Just out of curiosity...If you were gonna lose somebody as a result who would you prefer it to be: A) The straight person who doesnt want to shower with a homosexual or the homosexual person who wants to be able to make their homosexuality be known and still be allowed to shower with all the straight people of their gender?

Seems to me that the person who's paranoid or bigoted enough for it to keep him out is likely to be the bigger problem and hazard if they were to join, so I'd probably elect to let him/her stay out to begin with.

And has been stated already, I just don't see the whole showering thing as being that much of a problem.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

And for you maybe it isnt. But I am sure for some it would be. The same as some women may find no objection to showering with the guys while others would be strictly against it. If we are gonna grant consideration in one respect then we should in both.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Also how is it being bigoted or paranoid to not want to be nude in front of a homosexual member of your sex? Does that make a woman a paranoid prude is she doesnt want to shower in front of a man?

Now to say they could not be allowed in the military at all would be bigoted.

[Guest Jamie]

And for you maybe it isnt. But I am sure for some it would be. The same as some women may find no objection to showering with the guys while others would be strictly against it. If we are gonna grant consideration in one respect then we should in both.

Like I said, if it's that much of a problem for 'em, then they're not likely to last very long in the military any way. They're just too likely to have real problems with other things there... like not getting a choice in what they do or do not do.

BTW, I took basic training at Ft. Knox Kentucky, way back in 1980. Even then, in the recruit's barracks, the showers had individual stalls. Nobody was washing anybody else's back, or having to worry about bending over to pick up the soap. And those, at the time, were some of the oldest barracks in the U.S. military, or so I was told.

Anyway, the whole showering thing is just really not an issue. If you don't believe me, join up and see for yourself.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

Like I said, if it's that much of a problem for 'em, then they're not likely to last very long in the military any way. They're just too likely to have real problems with other things there... like not getting a choice in what they do or do not do.

BTW, I took basic training at Ft. Knox Kentucky, way back in 1980. Even then, in the recruit's barracks, the showers had individual stalls. Nobody was washing anybody else's back, or having to worry about bending over to pick up the soap. And those, at the time, were some of the oldest barracks in the U.S. military, or so I was told.

Anyway, the whole showering thing is just really not an issue. If you don't believe me, join up and see for yourself.

Well if they are all divided where you dont have to worry about them seeing you then great the issue is solved....However if it isnt then it should be addressed IMO.

[Guest db99wj]

Like I said, if it's that much of a problem for 'em, then they're not likely to last very long in the military any way. They're just too likely to have real problems with other things there... like not getting a choice in what they do or do not do.

BTW, I took basic training at Ft. Knox Kentucky, way back in 1980. Even then, in the recruit's barracks, the showers had individual stalls. Nobody was washing anybody else's back, or having to worry about bending over to pick up the soap. And those, at the time, were some of the oldest barracks in the U.S. military, or so I was told.

Anyway, the whole showering thing is just really not an issue. If you don't believe me, join up and see for yourself.

Those were the ones that some parts of Stripes was filmed in and also many were used for in-processing and temporary barracks while in-processing. I stayed a few days extra due to a reaction to the TB test. I was there in 1990 and 1991.

[Chucktshoes]

The showering thing really isn't an issue. When I went through BMT @ Lackland We had very limited time to shower and clean the latrine so this is how it worked. We had the 6 head open bay showers, 3 shower heads on each side. Hot water steamed and took longer to clean off of mirrors and such so only cold water was allowed. You started at 1 shower head and rotated to the next one every 30 seconds. Think like an assembly line, 3 minutes start to finish. You were far too busy trying to reach some reasonable facsimile of clean to be checking out somebody's junk. There isn't time for it to be an issue. LOL.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

The showering thing really isn't an issue. When I went through BMT @ Lackland We had very limited time to shower and clean the latrine so this is how it worked. We had the 6 head open bay showers, 3 shower heads on each side. Hot water steamed and took longer to clean off of mirrors and such so only cold water was allowed. You started at 1 shower head and rotated to the next one every 30 seconds. Think like an assembly line, 3 minutes start to finish. You were far too busy trying to reach some reasonable facsimile of clean to be checking out somebody's junk. There isn't time for it to be an issue. LOL.

Good point. We should implement unisex showers then since women should be able to shower as quickly as men and no one has time to look around anyway

[Guest Jamie]

Also how is it being bigoted or paranoid to not want to be nude in front of a homosexual member of your sex? Does that make a woman a paranoid prude is she doesnt want to shower in front of a man?

Now to say they could not be allowed in the military at all would be bigoted.

You do realize that those are issues you had to overcome even if you joined, oh, say a year or so back, right? And that the gays were already there, only nobody was supposed to know who they were.

So with that in mind, if possibly knowing exactly who those people are causes you trouble, where not knowing didn't... then you've got an entirely different problem. And that problem pertains directly to homosexuals, and on an irrational level. Therefore, "bigoted and paranoid" fit quite well.

For me though, if it were going to bother me, it would be worse not knowing... you know, like walking through a crowd and knowing there was an armed escaped murder somewhere in there, but not knowing who, or what they looked like.

I'd much rather know, so I could take the required precautions.

As for the woman showering in front of a man thing... depends on the man and the circumstances.

With joining the military though, there's just a lot of things that you have to get over and put behind you. And if you can't do it, then you probably shouldn't be there.

As I said, you really should join and see for yourself.

[Guest Jamie]

Those were the ones that some parts of Stripes was filmed in and also many were used for in-processing and temporary barracks while in-processing. I stayed a few days extra due to a reaction to the TB test. I was there in 1990 and 1991.

I believe those were the old wooden barracks at the reception station... and even then, they were barely used. Mostly for overflow, as I recall. The ones I'm speaking of are the brick, 3 or 4 story jobs that were (are?) in full use, about a mile from the main gunnery range for the tanks.

[Daniel]

I assuming you are referring to the fact gays & lesbians have existed for years in the military? I would say that the reason it becomes an issue now as a general right of privacy and to maintain order we do not require personnel to shower with persons who have a sexual attraction to their gender ie; Male and Female showers. This rule is enforced regardless of if their is any actual sexual attraction between the parties showering at that time. Now we are dealing with a situation where an individual has made known they have a sexual preference for persons of their own gender. Now if we allow them to continue using the same shower facilities for group showers we are forcing people to expose themselves before people who are known to have an attraction to their gender something we havent forced before.

I do not think it has to do with sexual attraction at all.

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

You do realize that those are issues you had to overcome even if you joined, oh, say a year or so back, right? And that the gays were already there, only nobody was supposed to know who they were.

So with that in mind, if possibly knowing exactly who those people are causes you trouble, where not knowing didn't... then you've got an entirely different problem. And that problem pertains directly to homosexuals, and on an irrational level. Therefore, "bigoted and paranoid" fit quite well.

For me though, if it were going to bother me, it would be worse not knowing... you know, like walking through a crowd and knowing there was an armed escaped murder somewhere in there, but not knowing who, or what they looked like.

I'd much rather know, so I could take the required precautions.

As for the woman showering in front of a man thing... depends on the man and the circumstances.

With joining the military though, there's just a lot of things that you have to get over and put behind you. And if you can't do it, then you probably shouldn't be there.

As I said, you really should join and see for yourself.

I dont see this as being an issue that would require me to join to have a see for myself to formulate my opinion.

And yes knowledge may be helpful if you can do something about it (as mentioned earlier at later points in the military experience) but I am not sure how much help if offers when you are ordered to do something...Currently we have a system with an less than desirable attribute in which gay men and lesbian women are allowed to shower with their respective genders but this is simply the result of not being able to tell whether someone is homosexual or not be an external objective test. However if they were to freely admit it I dont see why precautions couldnt be taken then?

Also I realize you are forced to just suck it up and deal with things. Here the question is whether the one to suck it up is the homosexual who is told to keep their sexual preferences to themselves or the heterosexual person who is told they have to shower with them.

What is the reason behind not supporting separate bathing facilities? Cost and expenses to the taxpayer? If so then having everyone use one big shower room seems like it would save even more money...Strangely though many dont see to be onboard with the idea of their daughter being told to use the same shower with both men and women

[Guest 85rx-7gsl-se]

I do not think it has to do with sexual attraction at all.

Then what does it have to do with? Why have separate facilities? Would you support elimination of separate facilities then?

[Guest db99wj]

I believe those were the old wooden barracks at the reception station... and even then, they were barely used. Mostly for overflow, as I recall. The ones I'm speaking of are the brick, 3 or 4 story jobs that were (are?) in full use, about a mile from the main gunnery range for the tanks.

Ah, thought you were talking about the wooden ones. I'm looking at a google maps, and hell, I can't find anything on it that I remember. Man it has been a long time. I was in the 4-story (I think) ones on Wilson Road.

[Daniel]

Then what does it have to do with? Why have separate facilities? Would you support elimination of separate facilities then?

It has to do with there being two different sexes. With all the urinals men dont have room for couches, chairs, a coffee table and magazines.

I would be fine with mixed sex showers.