sightless shooting

[Guest jackdog]

Saints,

Glad you had some good results with your point shooting. Like you, I was trained primarily on sights. After learning point shooting, I flip flopped back and forth for years. Now I'm pretty much point shooting only. The middle finger deal works well for some my wife included. I worked with her yestrday using the Glock 27. she had no problem firing with the two finger grip and recoil one handed. Shes 4'11 and 121 lbs and not really much into athlectic events. She says the middle finger trigger pull felt easier and more natural. Her groups at 10 yards were about six inches usins rapid fire 4 round burst. She is in love with the whole idea. Once again everyone needs to employ the methods that work best for them and those that they feel most comforable with. for me thats sight shooting because I have a fuller view of my surroundings, I can get on target faster and i know that i will hit the target i'm pointing at. Low light and no light conditions do not come in to play. Also muzzle flash that destroys your night vision has little effect on successive shots while point shooting. Thanks once again for giving the tecnique a valid try.

Jackdog

[jgrauman]

i was bored and found this thread that i never read before.... WOW! what a thread. We're pretty much a PG forum here at TGO and that thread was approaching a PG-13 rating! even mentioned "dorks." that was an entertaining read!

[Guest Phantom6]

Well, I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Yeager regarding the ridiculousness of shooting with the middle finger while placing the trigger finger alongside the frame. Consider this-

1. You should always grip the firearm the same way every time you pick it up. It's part of the muscle memory that allows you to continue to function efficiently during a fight.
   
2. If you draw your firearm from your holster you should not need or want to change your grip in any way because that takes time, it ain't smooth and smooth is speed. There is an old saying that goes something like this- Practice your grip to perfection and remember that the first grip you get on your pistol is most likely the grip you will be stuck with until the fight is over.
   
3. Look at the photo of Bill Jordan again and study his strong arm very carefully. His elbow is tucked into his side just above his pelvis bone and his wrist is locked. The technical term for this is called a kinesthetic positioning which is simply the efficient use of the peripheral nervous system. There are many sensory receptors in the human body that provide information to the brain concerning an individual's surroundings. The eyes and ears are important but in this case the sense of touch is what Jordan is using in the photo and being processed by his brain to help his body complete safe and efficient movement. A great way to practice this is to use a laser equipped pistol. As a matter of fact, IMHO this is the best use of a laser on a handgun. Back to Bill Jordan, he practiced this technique to perfection and he never had to change his grip to survive as many gunfights as he did.

Within 10 feet I don't need or use sights if I'm running quick, fast and in a hurry to get off my first 5 rounds because I've practiced that just as Jordan did. It's just my mind remembering where my elbow is touching my side and at what angle my arm needs to be at to hit my 5'9" avg. target center mass with my wrist locked. Within 3 feet I'm most likely going to be aggressing on (moving into) my attacker, grappling with his strong arm or preferably driving my off hand up under his nose or chin (making him react to that hand) while I draw and fire my pistol point blank into my target.

I can show anyone how to do it but it takes practice. Remember, in a fight you will most likely never be much more than half as good (fast and accurate) as you are on your best day on the range. So, practice, practice, practice. That's one of the beauties of using a firearm. It's muscle memory.

[Rifleman]

Hick's Law 1952: for every response choice added, the amount of time required to react nearly doubles.

Summary: do it only one way all the time, every time and you will be less likely to stumble when a response is needed.

[Marswolf]

I don't know I can disagree with any of this. If you practice often the same good technique you get better. At the same time, it's wise to practice less than usual techniques in case a situation should ever occur where the normal way of aligning and firing can't be done.

Bottom line for me - I'll practice point shooting occasionally when I go through offhand drills and stuff, but I doubt I'll do it very often.

[Guest jackdog]

This thread has been around a while, and I"m glad that it is still getting reasonable and thoughtful responses. Everyone should use what he is most comfortable with, but one should be prepared to shoot differently when the unexpected arrives.

[Guest db99wj]

This thread has been around a while, and I"m glad that it is still getting reasonable and thoughtful responses. Everyone should use what he is most comfortable with, but one should be prepared to shoot differently when the unexpected arrives.

Yep, because in reality, if you pull the trigger with your pinky toe and save your life from a BG, that is the best technique for you!

Seriously, that is why we practice one handed, two handed, weak handed and I've read articles on if you are right handed and shot in the arm, what do you do to un-holster your handgun on your right hip with your left hand and get it into a firing position. The most important thing is getting off the first shot when the shtf.

[Guest Boomhower]

WOW…..Very interesting topic indeed. I can’t believe I’ve missed this all along.

As to the arguments of there is a time and place for every challenging event, I can agree with. I think if there is ever a possibility that you may need to discharge at close range, being familiar with sightless shooting would certainly ease my mind concerning what’s in the back ground behind your attacker. Just to be honest with you all, If I ever had to draw on someone, I’d probably be firing shortly after I pulled out of the holster. That’s just lack of experience on my part as I am still green to all of this.

As to the arguments of you need training, I can agree with as well. I am in full support of training of any and all kinds. I’d like to know as much as I can, without overloading my brain of course. However, I am (what’s the word I’m looking for), I guess disappointed if I may, of some of the professional trainers that have commented in this thread. I want to be in full support of any of you guys in this nice TGO community, but It disappoints me to see someone belittle another over something as simple as a method of discharging a firearm. I definitely do not agree with using this method without many hours of “precise” practice, but it still comes down to personal choice, or the dreaded word, “opinion”. I am not saying that I will never consider using some of the recourses here as a means to better myself, but I will find it hard to trust in these individuals/businesses. It is hard to sit on the internet and put your trust into anyone without meeting them in person, but the unprofessional acts presented here speaks volumes to those of us that desire to pay any amount of money for another persons guidance and/or training methods. Even with me living in E. TN, I would not have had a problem driving any distance to support fellow TGO members, but actions speak louder than words and you can pretty well gauge ones professional prestige in how they represent themselves in public. As I’ve stated above, I will not mark anyone off my list, but they will be bumped down a couple of spots.

My hope is that attitudes change, and opinions of others are respected. I will listen to you all day long, as long as you return the favor when it’s my turn to speak.

If you feel that you have been personally attacked in this post, I can assure you that you have not been. Read my post again and you will find no names mentioned. I am merely stating my opinion of how I have observed others comments in this thread.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I'm new here so I'll wade into the murky water.....

What I use, recommend and teach is what we refer to as the "sighting continuum". It goes from shooting from retention as you are fending off a contact attack all the way out to using a picture perfect sight picture for making hits on distant targets at 50, 75 even 100 yards and farther. It also refers to everything in between.

Do I need to have ANY sight picture at 3 feet ? No. I don't even have to see the gun. I shoot from the #2 position of the draw stroke with my shooting hand elbow cranked up so my rounds impact the target in the lower abdomen/pelvic area as I use my off hand to protect my head/neck and strike the BG. This is exactly what Southnarc teaches and if you use the reference points properly you can shoot in physical contact with someone and still protect yourself and not have your gun malfunction and not shoot yourself in your fending arm.

Do I NEED to have a perfect sight picture at 3 yards to shoot you in the chest? NO. Really all I NEED is to get the gun in my visual center line, project it straight at the target and MAYBE square my pelvis to the target, but that is a story for another time. I can even shoot from the #3 position of the draw (where your hands come together in the drawstroke-what we call compressed ready) and get excellent hits out to 4 or maybe 5 yards.

Do I NEED to have a perfect sight picture at 5 to 7 yards? No. I just look for the outline of the gun in my peripheral vision surrounded by the target and work the trigger.

Do I NEED to have a perfect sight picture to get good COM hits at 7 yards? NO. I just focus on the target looking OVER the gun, seeing the top of the slide somewhat peripherally.

Do I NEED to have a perfect sight picture at 7 to 10 yards? No I can just look for the front sight like a shotgun bead and work the trigger.

Do I NEED to have a perfect sight picture at 10-15 yards? Well here things start to get a little more dicey. At this distance I will usually shoot "out of the notch" looking for the front sight on top of the rear.

Do I need to have a perfect sight picture past 15 yards? Depends on the size of target, but this IS the distance where I DEFINITELY want a GOOD sight picture.

All this is easily accomplished if you grip the pistol CORRECTLY and get it lined up with the bones in your arm and project the pistol at the target in your visual centerline. This is accomplished by getting all the grip you are gonna get on it while it is in the holster, not monkeying with it as you project it. The gun muzzle goes where your eyes see and if you have the time by all means LOOK FOR THE SIGHTS. But if not, you can still make hits. If you can throw a punch and hit what you are throwing it at, you can throw a punch with a pistol in your hand and fire the shot at the extension and get EXCELLENT hits at 5 yards or less.BUT it is all dependent on your draw stroke being properly done.

Up close perfect sight pictures are not mandatory. But sometimes if we only have a small target exposed, the 5 to 7 yard shots may REQUIRE using the sights. Think about shooting at someone behind cover.Things are complex and there is not a 2 second "bumper sticker " answer to these questions.

It really isn't a ONE AND ONLY TRUE WAY kind of deal. It is not EITHER sights OR point shooting/threat focused shooting/instinctive shooting. It is "all of the above". And most of us know this.

I'm a big boy so fire away.

[saintsfanbrian]

Ah dang, this one gets dredged up again.

[Branket]

Ah dang, this one gets dredged up again.

There should be a sticky in the new member welcome area that says "Do not post in the point shooting thread, let it die a quiet death."

[Branket]

Of course I just inadvertently bumped it thus keeping it alive longer. Why can't I follow my own advice.

[Guest 5shot]

Hello to all of you. Just ran across this interesting forum.

I use the social digit. That works for me.

As to the pic, the first time I saw the target will Mr Orange, I bought one and used it as my first target.

I since have received criticism for shooting the "hostage" from many of my "betters". My response is, hey I thought it was a cool target, and just shot it up. I don't go to the range very often or shoot much.

And I don't aim for precision, just hits at CQ distances.

I can sight shoot, but don't, etc, ect, ect.

If you are interested, gun test info with videos and pics, FBI papers, info on the strong and level shooting platform you get with the P&S GRIP, papers on the fight or flight response, etc...., and all for free see my site. I don't plan on discussing it here as I have been there done that (spell that -- food fight).

As to holstering, most at home folks don't walk around with a gun in a holster as far as I know. A pouch type holder that you could just strap around you and snap together could be a good way to have your gun at home. Grab it and snap it on regardless of how you are attired.

Those who carry only in a holster may not think that is a good option for them. So, you will just have to deal with that. I am not in charge.

As to the method itself, even Mr. Yeager said a long time ago that P&S works as advertised. That was after he read an article on it in The Southern Lawman, and tried it as I requested. He also said that he and his fellow shootists did not find it quicker or better than what they were using.

..........

And Jim, the last note I had from you, you challenged me to a duel. Knowing that you are somewhat brash, thought you meant with real guns. So I did not respond.

..........

With paintball or sims no problem. Would look forward to it if I ever get back East again and into your neck of the woods.

I only shoot real guns about 4 times a year and then only 100 rounds each time out, so you would probably have a big advantage.

P&S is brain dead simple, and can be learned with little or no training or practice. Just use some common sense and safe gunhandling practices.

As to challenges not accepted:

I had lined up a cheap airfare and was going to go to a gathering in Tenn a few years back, but upon mentioning who I was, was told I was not welcome.

And recently, I offered to attend a CQB type course out here in the West and act as one of the bad guys, and got a blank wall response.

I later was informed that to allow me to attend and do "my thing", would give tacit approval to it or words to that affect.

To my way of thinking the world of the gun is more bizarre than OZ.

But, talk is cheap and so are words.

CHECK IT OUT IF INTERESTED, IT'S YOUR LIFE AND/OR YOUR LOVED ONE'S THAT MAY BE THREATENED WHEN IT'S DARK AND/OR YOU CAN'T SEE YOUR SITES, OR YOU DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO USE THEM, OR HAVE TROUBLE MOVING AND SHOOTING.....

Your targets will tell you all you need to know.

[saintsfanbrian]

Welcome 5shot. Your comments are great and I welcome future discussions with you.

[Donnie]

[towerclimber37]

Boom, I think you saw how useful point and shoot techniques can be.

Cruel hand Luke...NICE POST! I liked it and I concur..but then again, I don't practice point and shoot as much...but I will take your post and incorporate some of the things I read in it...thanks!

[LA_357SIG]

I usually black out the rear factory sight with a sharpie, unless they are night sights. Now I'm just going with the Fiber Optic front and all-black rear sights on my new CCW pistols. I tried Ghost ring sights and Big Dots But i was only accurate up to <5 yards. Trench sights were hard for me too.

Long story short.......I practice/shoot w/ both eyes open focused on the front sight.

[Guest looneeetunes]

personally i keep my index finger for trigger and booger pulling. but to each their own i guess. how ever you feel most confortable when you are in a situation, just practice it and be proficient at it.. thats just my two cents..and xd i gues i have done it as well..... stayin alive....stayin alive...ooooh...oooooh...oooooh...oooooh...... stayin aliiiiiiiive

[Daniel]

Sorry for the long post but:

Let’s see, drewi. I have searched back through this thread to see exactly what Mr. Yeager has to say on the shooting technique that I have described and will attempt for myself this weekend.

Here are the exact QUOTES of his comments

1st:

2nd.

3rd.

It doesn’t appear anywhere on this thread where he shows reasons for or against using your middle finger to pull the trigger while your index finger points to your target. Using comments like “challenge†and “grow a set of balls†is akin to the school yard bully that when actually confronted by a person with knowledge of fighting or some one who has just had enough of their macho BS usually ends up on the short end of the stick.

For Pete’s sake, I even think I mentioned at one time that I would put money on Mr. Yeager, though I think I will retract that statement after the comments that he has made. I understand he has a training facility to run and that takes up most of his time I am sure, but to make a comment and duck and run, you might as well be lying in a ditch when the shots are fired.

Whining? I dare say not, I have expressed my opinions – as have most of the people on here. Mr. Yeager simply puts in a snide comment or a chest pounding here and there and runs away. I have listened to others comments on this style of shooting that I am interested in. I understand what their opinions are and I will keep those in mind as I practice it. Tungsten even made comment that we should ALL learn alternate methods of pulling the trigger. If your index finger gets cut off for some reason, how else would you do it?

I have tried to read and re-read this entire thread to see where I am whining. I don’t claim to be an instructor, I wouldn’t want the headache, but I would think that an instructor would be open for discussion on a topic and at least hear both sides of the argument before launching in to “That finger along side the gun technique is just plain stupid†with out giving information and statistics to back it up. After all, he is only an instructor with these qualifications:

• Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
  
• F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
  
• TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
  
• FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed†courses
  
• A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
  
• Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
  
• Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
  
• Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
  
• Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
  
• NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
  
• NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
  
• Glock Certified Armorer
  
• Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
  
• Knife Defense Instructor
  
• Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
  
• Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
  
• S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
  
• Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
  
• Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
  
• Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
  
• Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
  
• OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
  
• Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
  
• Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
  
• Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
  
• S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
  
• D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
  
• Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
  
• Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
  
• Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
  
• John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
  
• Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
  
• SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
  
• 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
  
• Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
  
• 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
  
• 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
  
• 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
  
• 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
  
• Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
  
• Tony Scotti Driving Instructor Course

From: http://www.tacticalresponse.com/instructors/jamesyeager.php

Remember, ladies and gentlemen, Character is doing the RIGHT thing when NO ONE is looking!!!!

... el oh el

[Guest nj.piney]

eighteen of the people killed by billy the kid thought he had a silly way

of pointing his gun . the other three had no opinion. if it works for you, do it.

[saintsfanbrian]

Oh good lord, who drudged this one up.......

Wait, that was me.

[towerclimber37]

LOL! Brian...I liked 5shots comments as well!

[Guest jackdog]

The thread that just will not go away. I wonder is this the longest running tread on the board, not counting new members of course. Is there a prize? LOL

[Guest 2HOW]

I dont think any point shooter uses his middle finger to pull with today. I know the technique was started that way but has been refined. Point shooting is a great system, everyone should be at least familiar with it.

[Guest jackdog]

Hey if you get the chance find the pick of Ruby shooting Oswald. He used the middle finger to pull the trigger.