sightless shooting

[Marswolf]

Well said, Mr. Wolf. Want to come to Memphis and teach me some of that good clean living you do?

I'm sorry, I only do jungles and multi-cultural cities.

[saintsfanbrian]

Well, Memphis is becoming more and more like a jungle everyday. Oh well, I guess I will have to get out to the pretty part of TN one day.

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

There seem to a lot of assumptions and comments about our training from people who have never trained with us.

[Donnie]

I have a friend that took your fighting rifle course a couple years ago. He has nothing but good things to say about your program. I for one am looking foreward to the TGO pistol class at the end of May.

[Guest triggertime]

I didn't read about it on the internet, I don't recall when I first heard about it, but I have talked it over with a bunch of friends that are regular shooters and they do see some merit in it.

The technique that uses the index finger extended alongside the firearm with the middle finger actuating the trigger, is touted by a man named John Veit who posts on the internet under the pseudonym "okjoe". He admits to having no professional training, other than how someone taught him to shoot a grease gun "way back when" 1954 when he was in the military.

He has gotten himself banned from various gun-related message boards for his general attitude when challenged to "put up or shut up" by professional trainers. He refuses all challenges to this technique. Why is that? Because it has no merit.

"Training is only as good as the ones teaching it and how you practice it. I am not exhalting or detracting from anyones trainging techniques, but until the Fit truely hits the Shan, you don't know how you are going to react. All the training in the world prepares you for some eventual scenario, but until you are actually faced with it, you don't know how you are going to react."

You will react how you have been trained to react. You will react how you have ingrained your techniques into your subconscious through the process of habitual perfect practice.

Take your class, enjoy yourself, have fun, talk about it on the internet and with your friends. Train the way you see fit, I will train the way I see fit.

Again, this is the general attitude that John Veit projects when challenged. The similarities of thinking that this technique has merit and refusing professional training is typical.

Are you afraid of finding out that what you pontificate about on the internet has no merit in the real world?

[Marswolf]

FOOD FIGHT!

[Mike]

[Donnie]

where's that popcorn eating icon when you need it.

[towerclimber37]

That finger along side the gun technique is just plain stupid.

I have seen many styles of training, as well as carry practices.

I'd like to say that I believe that Saintsfan was simply prospecting for a style that he likes and asking questions on this particular style.

That said, I would like to point out to mr. yaeger that every person is different.

I've seen men that are trained in different types of combat that you would probably term as "stupid"...

and I can guarantee that if you came to contest them, they'd kill you so fast you would'nt believe it.

why? because that style FITS them. they are comfortable employing it and do so with ruthless precision. They have trained so much with it that its more than second nature...much like you train in your type of combat skills.

the point I'm trying to make is that if you belittle one type of training, without showing for good reason, why that training is a bad idea, then you risk exposing yourself as someone I call a "training bigot".

While Brian doesn't have your experience, he IS a fella that wants to learn tactics and training and is doing it on his own.

perhaps instead of calling his idea "stupid" which COULD be construed as inflammitory, point out the weak points in that type of training and then invite him come watch you train you might get a new customer that way...

as it is...when I see you make remarks like that, it tends to make me want to slide you over into the "narrow minded" category.

each man is different even as each training style is different..each one fits another differently.

we all have our good points and bad, strengths and weaknesses.

I advocate learning all that you can from whomever you can..and finding a style that you yourself can employ with that "ruthless precision" that I spoke of earlier. That way, when it comes time to protect yourself and the ones you love, you won't be the one that gets "bagged and tagged"

[towerclimber37]

:Doh, and guys..I got the popcorn!!! hmhmhmhmhm you want salt or butter?:devil::devil:

[Marswolf]

:Doh, and guys..I got the popcorn!!! hmhmhmhmhm you want salt or butter?:devil::devil:

That salt for the wounds?

[saintsfanbrian]

The technique that uses the index finger extended alongside the firearm with the middle finger actuating the trigger, is touted by a man named John Veit who posts on the internet under the pseudonym "okjoe". He admits to having no professional training, other than how someone taught him to shoot a grease gun "way back when" 1954 when he was in the military.

He has gotten himself banned from various gun-related message boards for his general attitude when challenged to "put up or shut up" by professional trainers. He refuses all challenges to this technique. Why is that? Because it has no merit.

You will react how you have been trained to react. You will react how you have ingrained your techniques into your subconscious through the process of habitual perfect practice.

Again, this is the general attitude that John Veit projects when challenged. The similarities of thinking that this technique has merit and refusing professional training is typical.

Are you afraid of finding out that what you pontificate about on the internet has no merit in the real world?

I don't see where I "refused professional training." As a matter of fact, I intend to take a street fighting course at my local range when funds permit. I also fully intend on practicing this technique this weekend to find out how it works for me of did I fail to mention that.

I have done some research on the training that has been offered here and I choose to support my local club. I also choose to fall back on some of the training that I had in the military. You say it has no merit. Maybe for you. Why not allow me to practice it and find out for myself whether or not I can get target acquisition faster with my index finger riding along side of the slide? Or maybe I should bow down to the all powerful Oz and reject anything that I might find out on my own?

There is an old saying, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

You say you will react how you have been trained to react - so no soldier has EVER frozen in battle even after COUTNLESS HOURS/DAYS/WEEKS of training for combat? Of course they have, and why is that? Because all of the training in the world cannot completely train you for people shooting at you. When there is a real possibility of DEATH on the line, you don't know how you will react. No one truely does until they have been in a life and death situation.

I think on this matter, we are going to have to civilly disagree with each other, that is as long as we can both agree that everyone has an opinion....

[towerclimber37]

and all that being said...I don't use sightless shooting because I don't have time to train enough with it. I DEFINITELY don't use alternative finger techniques because my fingers are short so it takes away from my accuracy (yeah..I tried it at one time..never could feel comfortable with it).

Brian, keep an open mind and if you're close, talk to James about taking a pistol course. You'd be suprised at what you learn...you often take away things that they don't even think their teaching you.

I will be taking his course probably in mid-June when I come off of deployment with this tower company I work for.

[saintsfanbrian]

And, Tower, thanks for the backup.

[towerclimber37]

hahaha THANNKS Mars! I'm going to take mr. yeagers' pistol course simply because I like different types of training!

[molonlabetn]

let's open up the debate a little more... < my apologies for going even further off-topic >

What type of popcorn popper is most reliable for producing delicious snacks when the SHTF?

Hot-Air Popper - ?

Kettle Popper - ?

Microwaveable - ?

Jiffy-Pop - ?

[towerclimber37]

Brian.. ahhh man!! I call it like I see it...if I say something "stupid" I expect you to gently rebuff me in the same manner..

the only reason that its worse for mr. Yeager is that he offers to teach these skills for money...he suprised me with that statement.

[towerclimber37]

:D:DI opt for the microwave...with a little fiddling, you can disable the cutoff switch and fry your opponent:eek:

[saintsfanbrian]

Tower, I don't live anywhere near Mr. Yeagers establishment and even if I did, the cost is a bit prohibitive for me at this time. I plan on taking a street level fighting course from my local range where they teach you how to react in a Wal-Mart parking lot (basically) http://www.rangeusa.com/Training/CourseDescriptions/StreetHandgunLevelI/tabid/64/Default.aspx

It may not be jungle survival, but it will be a start. I just need to get a couple more magazines for the Glock or Beretta (or both) and a belt carrier for them. I do need some 15 rounders for the Beretta if anyone has a few spare they don't want.

And I vote for the Hot Air Popper - Orville Redenbacker can't be beat.

[Marswolf]

:D:DI opt for the microwave...with a little fiddling, you can disable the cutoff switch and fry your opponent:eek:

Microwave popcorn?

THAT'S STUPID!

[dkd83]

My .02: As an Army sniper I used to carry an M9 for close quarter use. Though I was not an extremely proficient shot with the pistol, I felt good having something I could sight with when the chips were down (10 power scopes suck at less than 300 meters).

So it strikes me that sightless shooting is a valid though obviously less accurate method of opening up new breathing holes in an opponent; however, I intend to focus on rapid sight/target acquisition before moving to less assured methods of fire.

Each to his own, but the random vitriol seems more misplaced here than the question in debate warrants.

[towerclimber37]

LOL niiice tagline DK.

and great post! see? now THATS what I call a "gentle rebuke"...I need to take lessons..

[towerclimber37]

I don't know about that...I saw a guy put 3 m203 rounds through a little window once...at about 250 yards..while under fire...I'm willing to bet you that he wouldn't have been able to do it in training...and I know, he was in my squad!

some guys are just like that I guess....hmhmhmh after that incident, he was of course, my very own personal Jesus Christ.

Say what you want about the "artificiality" of Force on Force training but if you can't do it in a simple Force on Force scenario I seriously doubt you are going to rise to the challenge and do better on the street.

[shaftbass]

So who is going to be the one at the TGO Tactical Response class to ask if you are going to learn the "finger pointing technique" during orientation

[Guest db99wj]

Let's all remember, opinions are like buttholes, we all have one!

In a fight, I don't care which finger pulls it, as long as it is pulled and the XD goes pow.

:Slowly stepping away to get a coke for the popcorn:

On a side note, I tried moving my middle finger independently from my other fingers.....that just don't work for me!!! Hell, my pinky was even moving!!! Also why I can't play the guitar!