sightless shooting

[saintsfanbrian]

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too,

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,

If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

And treat those two impostors just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much,

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

Rudyard Kipling

Words to live by.

[Marswolf]

Courage is NOT a trained response.

Practice and instruction is necessary, for sure! But don't forget that there are millions of people who have reacted effectively to deadly encounters without any formal training at all... So, I would submit that the probability of a person to panic or react in a given situation is based primarily on their mindset, regardless of their credentials.

I agree. I've been fortunate to generally work with men who not only had the training, but also have been proved in combat. But I've also worked with people in secondary positions who also had training and carried a gun every day, who curled up in the fetal position when the bullets started flying. Some long-term LEOs have never been tested. Some people panic. Some don't. Training can not always overcome fear. After a while you get where you can pretty much pick out the panicky people from the ones who will hold up and keep shooting if possible even if they are hit.

I preach mindset over and over. You have to anticipate what might happen and know what you are going to do if a given action does occur. That doesn't apply only to self-protection with a handgun. I have had it happen in other day to day situations. You look for the potential dangers and figure out what you will do if the potential becomes real. You are then ready for quick action if needed.

Back on topic, I had heard of point shooting but never tried it until It was mentioned on a non-gun training trip to Quantico. We took some spare time and I practiced the two-hand technique. Actually got fairly good with it given the short time available. Main problem I had was automatically going into an isosceles stance rather than what I was supposed to do. The one hand approach was demonstrated (middle finger pulling the trigger), but I didn't try it. It appeared pretty controllable, but then the demonstrator has practiced for years doing it. Sort of like, "Hey Bob - show that one handed thing."

The point of this mention is that some people who know a lot more about top of the line weapons training than anyone here don't think it is stupid. I doubt many practice it a lot, but it can work - with training.... Just one more possibility in the repertoire.

I seldom talk in absolute pronouncements. I give learned, and I think well thought out, opinions but I'm not the voice of God. You may hear me say that I don't like a given handgun and give my reasons for that view, but you'll never hear me say that someone is stupid for choosing it. Even if it's a POS, that may be the best they can do. I'd rather help someone learn to shoot his junker than tell him he's a fool for buying it. At least he'll get off one shot and have some idea what to do if it jams. In time, those lessons will transfer to a better handgun.

The best way to train on a technique is to do it. Different stances and techniques work better for different people. None is stupid if it works for you.

[Guest jackdog]

Triggertime, I appreciate your opinions on point shooting. You said the most practical way to carry a handgun and I quote"The most practical way for most people to carry a handgun, whether concealed or open, is in the strong side kidney position, often refered to as 3:30 or 4:00." How about a .380 in a pocket holster. You walking with your hand in your pocket and grasping the pistol. A guy walking with his hands in his pockets generally will not set off alarm bells in someones head. By the way it makes for a fast draw. As for recoil problems with a two finger grip, it does not appear to be an issue with my keltec 380, but it could be an issue with a larger caliber

Jackdog

[Guest jackdog]

When I originally brought the question of point shooting up.trigger finger or middle finger was not mentioned. As a matter of fact, when i was first introduced to the tecnique we used our trigger finger. I actually do perfer middle figer with my kel-tec, because the gun is so small. But this is a personal preference. We all need to find what works best for us and then train and practice,practice,practice. What works well for me may not work for others, but until we try different tecniques we will never know.

[Punisher84]

I see people come through our courses at Range USA and surprise us with something that is "out of the norm" and perform quite well with it. There is a place for basic foundations training and more "tactical" applications shall we say, but there is no place for an instructor who deems a method "stupid". If it is unsafe then that is a different story.

I don't know James Yeager personally, but what I hear I don't like. I had considered taking a few of his courses, but my mind was changed after a few conversations. I'll not saying anything negative of him in a public forum, but I won't sing his praises either.

[Marswolf]

We've got to get a popcorn emoticon.

[TGO David]

We've got to get a popcorn emoticon.

It can be arranged.

[Marswolf]

Good man!

[saintsfanbrian]

Well, so I went to the range today and I tried out this technique that so many people labeled as "stupid."

Here is what I learned from the ordeal:

I had NO PROBLEM manipulating the trigger with my middle finger. While using my supporting hand on the gun, I had NO PROBLEM with recoil and getting back on target. I also think that while you may not have AS MUCH of a grip on the firearm as you are clearing the holster, once you get it to a position with your support hand, there is as little chance of some one taking it away from you as there is if you have 3 fingers on the grip and one on the slide. I also shot NO WORSE than I did using my standard sighting practices. Since the range frowns upon drawing from a holster (unless you are in one of their classes) I didn't practice that at the range though I did try it at home (unloaded just in case) and had NO PROBLEM drawing the pistol from a Fobus paddle holster using only my ring finger and pinky finger on the grip of the gun to clear the holster and to raise it to a firing position. With my finger along the slide I was able to get of a descent grouping at both 15 and 25 feet with out using any sights at all. (I think I have stated before that when I "train" I train at distances I will likely be involved in a confrontation. Outside of 25 feet, I can imagine a DA or Defense Attorney or Civil attorney would have a field day with Mr. Saintsfanbrian, Why didn't you just seek cover when the incident started and leave it to the police to handle?) When I used the sights, obviously the grouping got better but ALL shots hit within the 8 ring and in a "fire fight" I will take 15 shots in that part of the body while still being able to be aware of where the bad guys buddies are with out much effort at all.

Do I think this is the BEST shooting technique out there? Nope, but I do think it is one that I will practice more, just in case the need arises for me to be able to manipulate my pistol with out the use of my index finger. Also a reason to get to the range more often.

Do I think it is STUPID? Nope, not in the least, but hey, this is all just my OPINION and since I have had NO FORMAL TRAINING, I suggest you try it out for yourself before you let some one else tell you it is stupid and should not be used by anyone.

[Guest StevensTN]

Thanks for the info concerning your attempt at shooting with the middle finger on the trigger. I've got to admit I thought it sounded odd. But hey, if it works, it's not stupid. The more options you have, the better. This whole thread has been very interesting, especially for a new member. Helps a person get a feel for personalities.

If anyone gets a chance, check out what Massad Ayoob has to say about Point Shooting Versus Aimed Fire in his Combat Handgunnery book. To much to summarize here, but worth checking out even if you just scan through the topic while in the book store.

[saintsfanbrian]

No problem Mr. StevensTN. I was just wanting to give everyone my opinion of this technique since it was heatedly debated the last few days.

[towerclimber37]

thanks brian! Nice work.

[Cannon Fodder]

Dumb question but in all the bickering over aiming with the index and pulling the trigger with the middle, did it occur to anyone that you can grip the gun normally and use your thumb instead of your index? That is if you choose to use that method.

[molonlabetn]

saintsfanbrian, good report... I just wanted to add that it would be a good idea to make sure that you can keep your middle finger out of the trigger guard when drawing. I have messed around with this method some in the past, and as a result of this thread just now tried it again with my Sig 239 as I was cleaning it... and when grasping the grip to draw, my middle finger naturally pulls inward as well, right into the trigger-guard.

You may have more finger dexterity than I do, as you've mentioned before, but out of concern I just hope that you take that into account when under stress, and drawing quickly...

Anything is possible with determination and practice.

Cheers,

[shaftbass]

I used my dork to pull the trigger today. Of course I had to grind off the trigger guard first.. It hurt a bit and I think I'm going to get some trigger work done so it doesn't take as much force to pull it.

[towerclimber37]

yah...getting that trigger guard removed is important! that way your ears won't get caught on anything.

[Marswolf]

You know, this point shooting thing has been around about a century. Different "experts" have differing views on the technique. Some people are big fans and some think it's ridiculous.

Guess I come down in the middle. As I've mentioned, I've tried the two-hand point shooting technique, but not the one-hand. I'll give it a try when I get back to the range. But I can't see seriously practicing it. I'm too trained on using another technique and point shooting is always going to be less accurate for about all of us. If you are one of the trick shooters using light loads, it makes a good show.

Saints, thanks for actually trying it and giving us a report.

[saintsfanbrian]

No problem, Mars. I thought it necessary to let some people that are only listening to the "experts" hear what it was like from a "layman's" point of view.

And Reef, I didn't know derringers came with trigger gaurds

[Marswolf]

Why is it that whenever I see this topic title, I think about a blind shooter?

[saintsfanbrian]

Well, even a blind squirel finds a nut every now and then.

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Why do you guys assume we haven't tried just about every way possible to shoot a gun?

That's a picture of a student shooting in an Advanced Fighting Pistol class.

[TGO David]

I'm just thankful that it's not a picture of Reef shooting with his dork like he said he did this past weekend.

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

I'm just thankful that it's not a picture of Reef shooting with his dork like he said he did this past weekend.

Now THAT would be STUPID

[molonlabetn]

I'm just thankful that it's not a picture of Reef shooting with his dork like he said he did this past weekend.

Now THAT would be STUPID

Heh...

Well, now what if one were to train and practice to do this? From the standpoint of pocket-carry, this could eliminate the need to draw! You would simply have to 'hump' the BG while engaging the trigger with your... errr... 'dork'.

!!!

[saintsfanbrian]

Shay,

I don't think anyone ever said that you hadn't tried other techniques of shooting. The argument was made that you shouldn't use the style that I suggested because it was "stupid" with out giving any reasoning behind that statement. So I tried it for myself and determined that not only was it NOT stupid, but that it could actually have practicle application.