sightless shooting

[Mike]

So who is going to be the one at the TGO Tactical Response class to ask if you are going to learn the "finger pointing technique" during orientation

[saintsfanbrian]

I doubt that Mr. Yeager will teach that in his class. He doesn't approve of it.

[Guest Archimedes]

Let's all remember, opinions are like buttholes, we all have one!

Ya, and most of them stink.

~Archi

[Guest jackdog]

Mr. yeager I have never fired a paint ball gun in my life, but your challenge does sound interesting. Let me see if I can find one and do some practice shooting before I accept your offer. As for the middle finger on the trigger, It's like any other shooting style, it takes practice. I'm a retired marine with 4 tours of combat experience under fire. Yes point shooting does have a place and may be the difference between a fellow reader living or dying. I think your closed minded attitude is a dis service to other members of the group.

If a situation would allow me to use sights I of course would do so. I'm not an idiot. But there are times and circumstances that do not allow you the luxury of using your sights. Incidently point shooting has been around for decades and has been used by the british comandoes as well as the US military. There are many variences to point shooting and you do not have to use your middle finger on the trigger. Jackdog

[molonlabetn]

Let's all remember, opinions are like buttholes, we all have one!

Difference is, we don't all share ours with everyone...

[Guest db99wj]

Difference is, we don't all share ours with everyone...

Holy crap, you owe me a new keyboard, I spit my drink alllllllll over it!!!

[Guest jackdog]

Middle finger on the trigger???

I have found that this really is a comfortable way to shoot smaller carry guns like the keltec 380. Wierd, well yes at first it feels really strange, but with practice it becomes as easy as using your index finger. Trigger control is just as good if you practice. The whole idea of pont shooting is putting a round in your adversary faster than he can put a round in you. I suggest that those who are not closed minded give this tecnique a valid try and do some serious practice prior to dimissing the method.

Jackdog

[towerclimber37]

:Dwhat was that old saw "if it looks stupid, but it works, it ain't stupid":D

[molonlabetn]

Middle finger on the trigger???

I have found that this really is a comfortable way to shoot smaller carry guns like the keltec 380. Wierd, well yes at first it feels really strange, but with practice it becomes as easy as using your index finger. Trigger control is just as good if you practice. The whole idea of pont shooting is putting a round in your adversary faster than he can put a round in you. I suggest that those who are not closed minded give this tecnique a valid try and do some serious practice prior to dimissing the method.

Jackdog

I have, that is the only reason why I feel that I can objectively say that doing this provides no benefit over a regular grip (since when you draw your index finger should be 'pointing' somewhat anyways...)

The only situation in which this method might hold an advantage would be when using a derringer with a minimal grip.

[Guest Archimedes]

I'm a retired marine with 4 tours of combat experience under fire.

Thank you for your service to our Country.

~Archi

[towerclimber37]

The only situation in which this method might hold an advantage would be when using a derringer with a minimal grip.

For YOU, this method might not work well enough to employ...for me either..but for someone else ..hey! viola! it works well enough for them to be comfortable with it.

with all this hubub, I'm going to try it out again..and approach it with a different attitude!

[molonlabetn]

Jiffy-Pop is JUNK!

heh... I just realized that I halfway made jackdog's point by stating that method of grip might hold an advantage when using a derringer with a minimal grip, and his point was that it works best for him with pocket guns.

Shows where my mind is...

Kids, don't do drugs!

...sorry for being argumentative, my point was directed more towards the proper use of full-sized pistols.

[towerclimber37]

Shows where my mind is...

...sorry for being argumentative, my point was directed more towards the proper use of full-sized pistols.

abe, its ok! whats the use of a discourse if you can't make mistakes, be forgiven/corrected..if we all knew everything we SO wouldn't learn anything!

I know exactly what you mean with the derringers though..both my fiance and my sis in law carry them..I cant shoot them for squat...they can though!

[James Yeager]

The offer still stands for the duel if anyone wants to grow a set of balls.

[molonlabetn]

The offer still stands for the duel if anyone wants to grow a set of balls.

???

Musta missed something... who do you think doesn't have 'balls' for not dueling with you? Or, was it a general insult to everyone who has never dueled you with toy guns?

Maybe you were joking... (again, I must have missed something...)

[saintsfanbrian]

The offer still stands for the duel if anyone wants to grow a set of balls.

Let's see, this is a great way to drum up business. Let's belittle people that think differently from us and then puff up our chests and say I am the greatest soldier to ever live and I can whip your butt like standing still.

I simply started out talking about a method of point shooting which I have heard of and was interested in learning more about, and all of a sudden I am a ball less wonder that won't drive 4 hours to face you in a mock duel?

Okay, thanks Mr. Yeager, my decision to not attend your classes EVER has been finalized. You really opened my eyes as to the type of person that you are.

[Marswolf]

The offer still stands for the duel if anyone wants to grow a set of balls.

We probably don't need to start the debate about who needs to grow the balls.

Middle finger on the trigger???

I have found that this really is a comfortable way to shoot smaller carry guns like the keltec 380.

Oddly enough, as I was reading your post I was working on the middle finger shooting technique with my P-3AT. It really feels good.

- Mars

Special Advisor - Vietnam

A whole bunch of stuff since then

[Guest drewi]

I can't stand it anymore.

He's asking ya'll to do this so he can prove his point. I'm sure it is better to pull a trigger with your index finger. EVERYBODY does is that way. Many people have come before you and tried this. All of this has been worked out by now and the best, most efficient way had been found. Are you trying to be different so everyone can see how special you are, and that you need attention? Go tell your Mom about this new way of shooting. No one here wants or needs to hear it. You aksed Yeager what he thought about it and he told you. Now you're calling him out because you didn't like his answer.

Pulling a ****ing trigger with your middle finger IS stupid.

Man up and quit whining.

[Guest jackdog]

My original question was if any one had experience in sightless shooting. Man did I open a can of worms. Hey it matters not to me what finger you use on the trigger, I have used both, it's what you can be the most proficient with.

As for anyone in the group calling others here ball less, well unless you have personal knowledge of an individual, or you've been at his side during a real fire fight you may want to keep your opinions to yourself.

Jackdog

[Guest jackdog]

Archimedes thank you for the comment.

Yeager, exactly what is your real life combat experience???

your additude over my original question really amazes me. An open mind can learn and grow, aclosed mind cannot.

Jackdog

[TGO David]

I can see where learning to pull the trigger with your middle finger, thumb, pinkie, ring finger or big toe might be beneficial the same way that learning to shoot with your off-hand is beneficial. Versatility could come in handy at some point.

[saintsfanbrian]

Sorry for the long post but:

Let’s see, drewi. I have searched back through this thread to see exactly what Mr. Yeager has to say on the shooting technique that I have described and will attempt for myself this weekend.

Here are the exact QUOTES of his comments

1st:

I challenge you to a duel with paint marking guns.

2nd.

That finger along side the gun technique is just plain stupid.

3rd.

The offer still stands for the duel if anyone wants to grow a set of balls.

It doesn’t appear anywhere on this thread where he shows reasons for or against using your middle finger to pull the trigger while your index finger points to your target. Using comments like “challenge” and “grow a set of balls” is akin to the school yard bully that when actually confronted by a person with knowledge of fighting or some one who has just had enough of their macho BS usually ends up on the short end of the stick.

For Pete’s sake, I even think I mentioned at one time that I would put money on Mr. Yeager, though I think I will retract that statement after the comments that he has made. I understand he has a training facility to run and that takes up most of his time I am sure, but to make a comment and duck and run, you might as well be lying in a ditch when the shots are fired.

Whining? I dare say not, I have expressed my opinions – as have most of the people on here. Mr. Yeager simply puts in a snide comment or a chest pounding here and there and runs away. I have listened to others comments on this style of shooting that I am interested in. I understand what their opinions are and I will keep those in mind as I practice it. Tungsten even made comment that we should ALL learn alternate methods of pulling the trigger. If your index finger gets cut off for some reason, how else would you do it?

I have tried to read and re-read this entire thread to see where I am whining. I don’t claim to be an instructor, I wouldn’t want the headache, but I would think that an instructor would be open for discussion on a topic and at least hear both sides of the argument before launching in to “That finger along side the gun technique is just plain stupid” with out giving information and statistics to back it up. After all, he is only an instructor with these qualifications:

• Louisiana State Police Firearms Instructor Number #0259
  
• F.B.I. Certified Firearms Instructor
  
• TN Department of Safety Certified Firearms Instructor
  
• FAA certified to instruct Law Enforcement “Flying Armed” courses
  
• A.L.S. Master Instructor (Less Lethal, Flashbangs, Chemical Weapons)
  
• Expandable Baton Instructor – Monadanock
  
• Bushmaster Certified Patrol Rifle/Carbine Instructor
  
• Aerosol O.C. Instructor – Fox Labs International
  
• Armor Holding - Gas Mask Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings - Pyrotechnic Munitions Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings - Distraction Device Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings – Chemical Weapons Instructor
  
• Armor Holdings - Less Lethal Munitions Instructor
  
• NRA Certified Handgun Instructor #11973397
  
• NRA Personal Protection Instructor #11973397
  
• Glock Certified Armorer
  
• Rangemaster Handgun Instructor Development
  
• Knife Defense Instructor
  
• Over 200 hours of DSS training for EP/PSD/BG
  
• Scientific Combat Method American Combat Masters 20 hour
  
• S.D.S.I. Tactical Rifle Course 16hours
  
• Tactical Knife Instruction- American Combat Masters 20 hour
  
• Black Water Lodge 32 hour Tactical Police and Military Shotgun Course
  
• Completed various 40 hour Officer Survival schools
  
• Attended Snipercraft 40 hour
  
• OPS - Advanced Low Light Shooting Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS - Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS - Handgun Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS - Patrol Rifle Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• OPS -Shotgun Instructor Course 40 hour
  
• Jim Crews - Tactical Handgun 20 hour
  
• Halo Group - Advanced Tactical Handgun 18 hour
  
• Rangemaster - High Risk Personnel 16 hour
  
• Rangemaster - Crisis Response Team Training 80 hour
  
• S.W.A.T. UTM / Chief Tom Long 40 hour
  
• D.E.A. - Clandestine Lab Investigations 40 hour
  
• Criminal Investigation School UTM 40 hour
  
• Patrol Interdiction 40 hour
  
• Basic SWAT-Jackson SWAT Team 40 hour
  
• John Farnam Advanced Tactical Handgun Instructor Course 20 hour
  
• Military Counter Drug SRT course 48 Hour
  
• SWAT by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M. Team 40 hour
  
• 40 hours in-service 1996-through present
  
• Active Shooter Instructor Course / TTPPA 24 hrs
  
• 40 Hr Police Sniper School by Smyrna S.T.O.R.M.
  
• 28 Hour Carbine Instructor / Jim Crews
  
• 40 Hour F.B.I. SWAT course
  
• 5 day Strategos Spec-Ops Low-Light Team Tactics 50+ Hours
  
• Personal Security Course from Armor Group International (I.T.I. in VA)
  
• Tony Scotti Driving Instructor Course

From: http://www.tacticalresponse.com/instructors/jamesyeager.php

Remember, ladies and gentlemen, Character is doing the RIGHT thing when NO ONE is looking!!!!

[Guest triggertime]

The problem here, is that there are alot of people on this website who have not had any formal training "at all" outside of their handgun carry permit class and they're acting like they know what they're talking about.

There is a difference between sitting on the internet and talking amongst yourselves about what guns are cool and what holsters are cool. But unless you know how to run those guns from those holsters under the stress that a formal training class provides you, you're only talking into the air to hear yourself talk.

Because what you think you know, in your own mind, without exposing yourself to formal training is just that, an opinion. Whether that opinion has merit and works in real life is only going to be discovered through formal training.

So when you get on the internet and attempt to belittle people like James Yeager, Shay VanVlyman, and others, you're only showing the amount of ignorance that you have on these matters. Its like a nascar fan arguing with a stockcar driver about their driving.

Now, I'm not James Yeager, but I will tell you why the point shooting technique that uses your index finger along side the frame of the handgun with your middle finger actuating the trigger is stupid.

The most practical way for most people to carry a handgun, whether concealed or open, is in the strong side kidney position, often refered to as 3:30 or 4:00. Before you withdraw your handgun from the holster in a life or death situation, the first step is to acquire a three finger combat grip on the gun using your middle, ring and pinky fingers with the index finger flagged from the frame and pointing along side it. You actuate the trigger with your index finger after you are on target and ready to shoot.

If you attempt to draw your handgun from the holster with just your ring and pinky finger on the grip, you do not have the dexterity or strength to remove it from the holster with just those two fingers. If you happen to get it out, the web of your gun hand will not be high enough on the backstrap and will result in malfunctions during firing.

From a weapons retention aspect, attempting to retain a handgun in a fight with just two of your weakest fingers controlling the gun will result in that gun being easily twisted out of your hand and used against you.

These are two obvious reasons why this technique is stupid.

The third is more important. As a matter of recoil control, how do you expect to control the handgun once recoil comes into play by just using two of the weakest fingers of your strong side hand? You may get one hit, but the gun will shift in your hand under recoil and require you to readjust it. You are now holding onto a loaded gun clumsily, which is not what you want to do in a fight from both a safety and weapon retention standpoint.

I could go on, and talk about trigger control, but there will always be some blowhard who has no formal training who will attempt to refute what I just said.

What's the point of that? Are you here to learn or are your just here as a group of gun carrying buddies who want to remain oblivious to the craft and just pontificate about things that you have no personal knowledge or experience in?

I don't understand that. That's the image that this board is beginning to show.

[saintsfanbrian]

Does it have to be "formal" training, or can I not train on my own at the range with people that I trust?

Yes, there are a lot of people who have not had "formal" training from a private sector. I have been through military training on the M9 (did I mention that is one of the guns that I own?) and there are others who have been in combat scenarios. A few of those people have expressed that there might be some merit to this firing technique.

I realize that you are not James Yeager, and I appreciate the fact that you actually took the time to write out a clear and concise reason for NOT using this technique, but then again, you call it stupid. How about a better word "ineffective." I might think the weaver stance is stupid, but that doesn't make it any less effective. If I personally can draw my weapon from my holster using the grip that you mentioned (3 fingers on the grip) and then slide my middle finger into the trigger gaurd while placing my supporting hand on the weapon and still get a round down range on target, what is the problem with that?

I will try it this weekend and tell you how it works out for me. I may come home with a knot on my head from the recoil, or I may come home having found a new way to acquire a target, either way I will be no "worse for wear."

And my only point on my last post was that Mr. Yeager, in his God like wisdom, declared this to be a Stupid idea, with out giving it any support other than "grow some balls" and "face me in a duel." That is childish and chittish in my opinion.

Trigger, you are showing class to try to explain it. I do want to learn and I appreciate your attempt to guide me (and anyone else that might think about this method) so I will take your advice in to consideration, but for my own satisfaction (and because as my wife says I have a very thick skull) I will practice this technique on Sunday, just to see how it feels. There is a distinct possibility that I will come away from the range not wanting to use it anymore on my full size weapons, but could see a practicle application for it on compacts like a 3AT or P11.

Thanks again, trigger.

[molonlabetn]

On the other hand, the only evidence that any of this training, which is displayed so proudly, can be effective, is based on the performance of those people under fire.

Courage is NOT a trained response.

Practice and instruction is necessary, for sure! But don't forget that there are millions of people who have reacted effectively to deadly encounters without any formal training at all... So, I would submit that the probability of a person to panic or react in a given situation is based primarily on their mindset, regardless of their credentials.

Acceptance of that premise in no way belittles the training which is recommended. It is merely acknowledgment of the fact that a coward will not be transformed into a hero through mere training and certification. There are examples far and near.

Training is good... but understanding WHY it is beneficial, and accepting the consequences of that responsibility, is far better.

So, no single facet in the development of a person prepared to defend themselves, or face combat, is independent or mutually exclusive of the others.