sightless shooting

[Guest jackdog]

Hey sights are nice and for target shooting there great. But for self defense there really clsoe to useless. An attacker that is say 6 to 12 yards away can get on you damn fast. think you got time to get a sight picture??

I've opted for quick kill or sightless shooting. With a little practice you can become really quite a good shot. Any one else out there using this tecnique.

Jackdog

[James Yeager]

I challenge you to a duel with paint marking guns.

[saintsfanbrian]

I put my money on Mr. Yeager. Personally, I choose to concentrate on the front sight all of the time I am shooting. I keep both eyes open and by concentrating on the front sight, I can still see the world around me, it might be a bit blurry, but I can see it and that is important in a fight. Keeping aware of what is around you. I am also trying out a technique of using my middle finger on the trigger while keeping my index finger "riding the slide." I have heard of people making quick target acquisition this way and being able to basically "point" at their target and hit dang close to where they are pointing. What is your take on that Mr. Yeager?

[James Yeager]

That finger along side the gun technique is just plain stupid.

[Rifleman]

I have dueled a few times with UTM marking guns. The guy who aims with his sights always hits, the guy who "point shoots" might get a hit, they guy who does not stand still rarely gets hit.

[saintsfanbrian]

That finger along side the gun technique is just plain stupid.

Why would you say that? Can you show where it doesn't help hit what you are aiming at? I will be testing this out this weekend to see how it works. I might lay my finger open but if it works better then I will continue to practice it.

[molonlabetn]

There are a couple of reasons why this method is flawed.

-Reduces the number of fingers holding the grip solidly when shooting and drawing from a holster.

-The middle-finger is difficult to move independantly of the other fingers, causing less precise trigger movement, and greater possiblity of pulling the grip off-target

I can imagine that this method might be adequete in a few circumstances, but overall is inferior to a standard grip. Your results my vary, this is just my observation (as one who has tried it, and seen it tried).

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Have you ever tested your ideas in Force on Force?

[saintsfanbrian]

There are a couple of reasons why this method is flawed.

-Reduces the number of fingers holding the grip solidly when shooting and drawing from a holster.

-The middle-finger is difficult to move independantly of the other fingers, causing less precise trigger movement, and greater possiblity of pulling the grip off-target

I can imagine that this method might be adequete in a few circumstances, but overall is inferior to a standard grip. Your results my vary, this is just my observation (as one who has tried it, and seen it tried).

As for moving the middle finger independently of the others, I am a quitar player and have been for almost 20 years. I can move my middle finger and the fingers next to it move the same as when I move my index finger, so I will put that one thing aside. As for having a better grip on the gun, between my firing hand and supporting hand, I will have almost as many fingers around the grip.

I will test it out this weekend (on Sunday) and give a report as to how it works for me. I would imagine it would help get the first shot on target quicker since you are actually pointing where you want the bullet to go.

I realize you have tried it and I respect that, I will try it this Sunday, like I said, and let you know how it works out for me.

No I haven't tested my ideas in Force on Force. Have you? Real force not hypothetical training force.

[Guest Archimedes]

I just can't see using any finger but my forefinger to pull the trigger.

I'm not as experienced as some of you, but it just seems too weird and that's the last thing I need in a fight for my life.

~Archi

[Marswolf]

Actually, this technique is described in Army's Field Manual 3-23.35 for the M9 and M11 pistols along with three other methods. Point shooting is less accurate and they consider it to be an emergency method.

While not as effective as aimed shooting, it is a useful skill to work on.

[Guest triggertime]

No I haven't tested my ideas in Force on Force. Have you? Real force not hypothetical training force.

So what you're saying is that using UTM modified Glocks (paint marking guns) in real senarios that utilize force on force, is "hypothetical training force" and people who have experience in this area don't know what they're talking about unless they use real ammunition?

Danger, Will Robinson!

[saintsfanbrian]

That is not what I am saying. You do have to admit, however, that knowing you are not going to die during the training using UTM modified Glocks, does change your mindset a little bit. There is a difference in KNOWING you are going to walk away from a situation regardless of the outcome and NOT KNOWING.

And Mars brings up a valid point. It may not be as accurate as true Aimed shooting, but if you use it to get your first shot on target, that will allow you more time to aim your follow up shots. Something I plan on working on at the range.

[Marswolf]

Just found this picture of Bill Jordan. He's the tall guy. If you don't know who he is, your gun education is lacking. Google 'Bill Jordan Border Patrol' and read away. A friend gave me a copy of his No Second Place Winner some time ago. It had belonged to her father who was a Tennessee Highway Patrol officer.

Note that he is point shooting.

[molonlabetn]

But he is at least using his index finger to pull the trigger, not his middle finger. That's the difference which concerns me... Real 'point-shooting' is a very useful skill to practice.

[Marswolf]

The military uses the middle finger on the trigger.

[molonlabetn]

Interesting... I've never heard that. I'll have to go pull that FM up... I assume that it's for use in special situations, as you said, not general practice?

---------------------------------------------------

The only reference which I could find in that FM was:

NOTE:Depending upon the individual firer, he may chose to place the index finger of his nonfiring hand on the front of the trigger guard since M9 and M11 pistols have a recurved trigger guard designed for this purpose.

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Say what you want about the "artificiality" of Force on Force training but if you can't do it in a simple Force on Force scenario I seriously doubt you are going to rise to the challenge and do better on the street.

[Marswolf]

Interesting... I've never heard that. I'll have to go pull that FM up... I assume that it's for use in special situations, as you said, not general practice?

For two hand firing, "The firer concentrates on the target and points the weapon in the general direction of the target. While gripping the handguards with the nonfiring hand he extends the index finger to the front, automatically aiming the weapon on a line towards the target."

The middle finger thing is something I was taught with a single hand grip.

My experience is that if I have time to get both hands on the handgun, I've got enough time to aim conventionally. I also find that you have to have enough time to plan to do a one-hand instinctive shot. That may sound odd to plan an "instinctive" shot, but it comes down to mindset. I've never drawn my pistol that I hadn't anticipated that I might have to do so. Situational awareness leads to a proper mindset.

I don't recommend the technique except for an emergency shot, but it is well worth practicing for a time you may need to shave a quarter second off of your shot.

[Guest triggertime]

That is not what I am saying. You do have to admit, however, that knowing you are not going to die during the training using UTM modified Glocks, does change your mindset a little bit. There is a difference in KNOWING you are going to walk away from a situation regardless of the outcome and NOT KNOWING.

The whole principal of force on force training is to learn what techniques work best under stress. Techniques that have no merit are quickly discredited and discarded from the toolbox.

It's safe to say that delibrately choosing to practice a technique that has been discovered to have no practical application or merit, just because you read about it on the internet, indicates that you really need to stop feeding into what you read online and start spending money on some formal training before you end up getting yourself killed.

I say that not as a personal attack, but as advice. How you interpret that advice is totally up to you.

[molonlabetn]

That makes sense... I see what you mean now Marswolf, and I agree.

[saintsfanbrian]

Lets see, I have seen practicle application for it. I have read Army and Air Force manuals that speak of using it as a first shot practice. I have no doubt that there are better methods of aiming a firearm, but if it helps me get a first shot on target with out having to use a laser or some other artificial device, why NOT practice it?

I didn't read about it on the internet, I don't recall when I first heard about it, but I have talked it over with a bunch of friends that are regular shooters and they do see some merit in it.

As Marswolf has stated, it is only recommended for an emergency shot. I think I even stated that it would help get the first shot on target allowing time for aimed follow up shots.

Training is only as good as the ones teaching it and how you practice it. I am not exhalting or detracting from anyones trainging techniques, but until the Fit truely hits the Shan, you don't know how you are going to react. All the training in the world prepares you for some eventual scenario, but until you are actually faced with it, you don't know how you are going to react. How about setting up some training when you don't know when it's coming?

All of the classes that I have seen or read about, they take you through the scenario a bit (at least discuss it) before it happens. What about the scenario where you are asleep in your bed and some one breaks in to your house? Or you are coming out of your favorite restaraunt and some one jumps you?

Is there a way to truely prepare for those scenarios? Not with live rounds, and if you have your gun loaded with blanks when you need it you are screwed. Yes the training classes are good for some type of "Force on Force" but you have to admit, the fact that you know you will not be "hurt" does change your mindset about how you react.

Take your class, enjoy yourself, have fun, talk about it on the internet and with your friends. Train the way you see fit, I will train the way I see fit.

[Donnie]

I'm open to new methods of training, for the most part, but I don't see myself doing the point shooting like you describe. I practice my close retention shooting, but with my trigger finger on the trigger. I don't feel comfortable with adjusting my grasp on the gun if more shots need to be fired. In a stressfull situation, you WILL fall back on your training. If you train in multiple draws, which one will you actually do in different situations where you don't have time to think? I've talked to a couple firearms instructors for the police department that have told me of actual officers that experienced a jam in a real gunfight in the field. They stopped and held their hand up, like on a firing line. It was their training taking over. We don't train like that.

I'll train the way that works for me. If point shooting with your trigger finger works for you, then have at it.

[Marswolf]

You know, I've never been on a board with more emphasis on paying for training.

Admittedly, the government has provided my training, both military and civil, but I've learned a lot from LE and military buddies and others with special skills. I've also taught them some interesting stuff that I've learned the hard way that never showed up in formal training. For most shooters, good training is establishing proper technique and/or correcting bad habits. A lot of that training can be free at the range just by asking someone you trust for their expertise just what you are doing wrong. Self diagnosis is often pretty difficult. Fixes are often simple.

Nothing wrong with formal training to learn usable skills, but some of this is beginning to sound like armchair commando stuff. More braggadocio than reality. For most of you, you aren't going to have to know how to clear a building or do a running firefight. If it ever happens, your worse moment is likely to come in a Wal-Mart parking lot or facing some druggie breaking into your house.

If you need Special Ops training, the government will provide it for you. The skill set you need is how to recognize a dangerous situation, respond properly to avoid it if possible, and develop the shooting skills and mindset to pull the trigger if necessary to neutralize the threat. Part of that comes from training. Part of it comes from within. The world is full of cowards who panic at every confrontation leaving their family or buddies to fend for themselves. In my experience, they often are the ones who bluster the most about how good they are. You need to know your opponents and also know your "friends" if you expect them to watch your back.

I'm just saying we all need to be realistic about the threats we will face and work toward proficiency in combating those actual dangers.

[saintsfanbrian]

You know, I've never been on a board with more emphasis on paying for training.

Admittedly, the government has provided my training, both military and civil, but I've learned a lot from LE and military buddies and others with special skills. I've also taught them some interesting stuff that I've learned the hard way that never showed up in formal training. For most shooters, good training is establishing proper technique and/or correcting bad habits. A lot of that training can be free at the range just by asking someone you trust for their expertise just what you are doing wrong. Self diagnosis is often pretty difficult. Fixes are often simple.

Nothing wrong with formal training to learn usable skills, but some of this is beginning to sound like armchair commando stuff. More braggadocio than reality. For most of you, you aren't going to have to know how to clear a building or do a running firefight. If it ever happens, your worse moment is likely to come in a Wal-Mart parking lot or facing some druggie breaking into your house.

If you need Special Ops training, the government will provide it for you. The skill set you need is how to recognize a dangerous situation, respond properly to avoid it if possible, and develop the shooting skills and mindset to pull the trigger if necessary to neutralize the threat. Part of that comes from training. Part of it comes from within. The world is full of cowards who panic at every confrontation leaving their family or buddies to fend for themselves. In my experience, they often are the ones who bluster the most about how good they are. You need to know your opponents and also know your "friends" if you expect them to watch your back.

I'm just saying we all need to be realistic about the threats we will face and work toward proficiency in combating those actual dangers.

Well said, Mr. Wolf. Want to come to Memphis and teach me some of that good clean living you do?