Anyone have a Spanish Mauser (M1916) in .308? Is is safe?

[southernasylum]

I bought this several years ago at an auction for next to nothing. I did some research and it was imported by Samco and reconfigured to .308winchester. I've never fired it. I've found lots of conflicting info as to weather or not these guns are safe to fire the .308 round.

The gun seems to be in good shape. No excessive pitting or signs of damage. It's clearly stamped .308 and not 7.62 like some models. Does anyone have any experience with these. It seems like it would be a fun shooter.

Thanks in advance,

-southernasylum

[Westwindmike]

I have a Spanish Mauser in .308 also. I used to shoot full power 7.62x51NATO ammo in it, but stopped a few years ago. I got concerned that a nearly 100 year old rifle might not hold up too well to full power ammo. I now just shoot cast bullets that I load to much lower pressure. It is much more pleasant to shoot now too.

I read to never shoot commercial .308 in it as it is loaded to even higher pressures than the NATO ammo.

Here is a good article on Spanish Mausers.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/spanishinquisition/index.asp

Edited October 13, 2010 by Westwindmike
Link added

[R1100R]

It was rechambered to shoot the 7.62 CETME round. Some models are called the FR7 or FR8 rifles depending on what size ring the Mauser was. It is identical to the 7.62X51 NATO but loaded to lower pressures and a lighter bullet to aid in automatic fire in the CETME rifle. Once H&K bought the licencse for the CETME and changed the name to the G3 they built the platform for the stronger NATO round.

EDIT: Sorry didn't see the link above. That has always been a great site for C&R firearms.

Edited October 13, 2010 by R1100R

[Westwindmike]

Quote from the article regarding the CETME round:

Let’s get this CETME cartridge debunked right now. The ORIGINAL cartridge (among a number of “prototypes”) was a 7.92 x 40mm round developed for the (then) experimental CETME rifle. It was then changed to a 7.62 x 51mm cartridge but at a lower pressure and lighter bullet then the 7.62 NATO. According to sources, this 7.62 CETME round was only used in two rifles, the CETME model A and B assault rifles. The 7.62 NATO is 7.62 x 51mm round also, but is loaded at a higher pressure and is still in use. The various re-worked rifles, including the FR7/8 and Guardia Civil, were ALL re-chambered in 7.62 NATO.

[R1100R]

Quote from the article regarding the CETME round:

Let’s get this CETME cartridge debunked right now. The ORIGINAL cartridge (among a number of “prototypes”) was a 7.92 x 40mm round developed for the (then) experimental CETME rifle. It was then changed to a 7.62 x 51mm cartridge but at a lower pressure and lighter bullet then the 7.62 NATO. According to sources, this 7.62 CETME round was only used in two rifles, the CETME model A and B assault rifles. The 7.62 NATO is 7.62 x 51mm round also, but is loaded at a higher pressure and is still in use. The various re-worked rifles, including the FR7/8 and Guardia Civil, were ALL re-chambered in 7.62 NATO.

FR8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great copy and paste from the site but not completely true " According to Souces" stated but not listed at the Surplusrifles.com site . FR7 was a small ring and it was not recommend using the Nato Round. The C model CETME also used the CETME round. That site has good info but is not the Bible. The CETME round is 7.62X51 but reduced loading to help control automatic firing. The Mausers were rechambered due to shortages of the CETME in the 50's to issue.

I have purchase bulk surplus CETME 7.62X51 in the past made by Santa Barbara. I have owned both a FR7 & 8. I don't miss the FR7 but wish I could find another FR 8 in good shape

I think what Westwindmike is getting at is that it's best to use a lighter load in such rifle which is sound advice.

For you reading pleasure:

I've finally dug out my reference materials and, I will try

to make some sense of the 7.62x51mm vice 7.62mm NATO vice .308

Winchester vice 7.62x51mm CETME story.

In December, 1953, the US T65 .30 caliber cartridge was adopted by NATO

as its standard cartridge. What this actually meant was that the five key

members of the alliance agreed to adopt the final version of the T65E3

(soft lead core) as their standard service round. Nominally, the round

adopted by the NATO countries had the following characteristics:

jacketed spitzer bullet of 147 grains (9.45 g) weight, a

brass case (conforming to the US Copper Alloy 260, Annealed,

MIL-C-50 standard) of 187 grains (12 g), for a muzzle velocity of

2750 +/- 50 fps (840 mps) measured 78 feet from the

muzzle.

The round had a variety of names. For example, in the US, the above

round is known as, Cartridge 7.62mm Ball M80 (or M59). In Germany, it is

Patrone 7,62x51mm, DM41A1. In Spain it is the Cartucho Ordinario, 7,62x51mm

OTAN.

Note that of the above nomenclature, there is no mention of a "NATO"

designation for the US or German cartridges. This is because there

were no other 7.62mm rifle cartridges made for and issued to either of the

respective armies. More importantly it is an eloquent statement of the

fact that only the cartridge itself was standardized and adopted. There was

and is no common nomenclature required by the 1954 NATO Standardization

Agreement (STANAG) which codified the adoption of the cartridge.

Spain however, was a different matter. Spain did not join NATO until

1982, and was therefore under no constraints to adopt the common cartridge.

Spain was also the only western European power to successfully adopt an actual

assault rifle (the CETME Model 58) instead of the "battle rifles" (M14,

L1A1, FAL, C1A1, BM59, G3) adopted by the NATO powers. Comcomitant

with the assault rifle, Spain adopted a true intermediate catridge,

the 7.62x51mm CETME. The intent was a cartridge that would allow

ballistic and accuracy performance from the Model 58 akin to that

attained by the 7.9x33mm (7.9 Kurz) fired from the StG44.

The performance and specifications of the 7.62x51mm CETME are

indicative of this intent. Nominal characteristics: jacketed

spitzer bullet of 112.5 grains (7.25 g) weight, a brass or steel case

of 151 grains (9.7 g), for a muzzle velocity of 2493 fps (760 mps).

The construction of the bullet is particularly noteworthy. The CETME

bullet has a 90/10 brass alloy (gilding metal) jacket, with a

plastic nose filler for the first third of the bullet, and a lead

antimony core. That is to say, the bullet jacket is not filled with

the lead core, but has what might be considered a lightweight

ballistic tip (not unlike the kapok tip in the .303 British service round).

This cartridge, adopted in 1957, remained the standard Spanish service round

for the next twenty-five years. Hardly a "diversion" or a flash in the pan!

Confusing the issue, however, were the facts that the external

dimensions of the cartridge were so similar to the NATO round,

and the fact that the

Spanish themselves produced a round to NATO specifications for use, I

understand, in the MG42/58 machine gun. This round was adopted in 1964.

Its specifications were identical to the NATO round mentioned above.

The designation was 7,62x51mm OTAN. Of particular note is the augmentation

to the case necessary to safely fire the NATO load. In 1961, an attempt

was made by the National Factory of Toledo (a Spanish arsenal) to achieve

NATO-esque ballistics by employing a 147 grain bullet at 2,625 fps (800

mps) using the standard CETME case. The attempt failed due to the light

CETME case being too weak to handle the pressures generated by the loading

used. A loading of notably less power than the NATO standard loading.

"This cartridge became standard with the Spanish Army after Spain's entry

into NATO in 1982, supplanting the 7.62x51mm CETME". The CETME rifles in

service at that time were modified with new bolt carriers to enable

them to safely use the more powerful NATO load.

Which brings us back to the original issue of .308 Winchester vice

7.62x51mm NATO. As previously stated, the specifications which

have to be met in order for a round to be a NATO standard 7.62mm

are very stringent, and apply to case, bullet, pressure, performance,

etc. The composition and thicknesses of the case are, therefore

rigidly controlled. There are no such specifications for commercial

cases. Something to keep in mind when selecting cartridges for

firearms chambered for the NATO 7.62mm round.

Non-NATO spec cases are the failures experienced by the Spaniards in

1961 when attempting to use lightweight 7.62x51mm cases to emulate NATO

loadings.

Sources:

"Cartucheria Espanola (Spanish Ammunition)," Angel Molina Lopez and

Alfonso Orea Maestro, Merino Publishers, Palencia, Spain, 1995

Edited October 14, 2010 by R1100R
Added content

[southernasylum]

Thanks for the info guys. It's pretty much in line with what I've found so far. I think I'll try to find some type of lighter 7.62 Nato loads to try in this gun. What had me wondering was the fact that mine is stamped .308W unlike many that are stamped 7.62, Then again, maybe I'll just let it keep the safe warm or use it as decoration. If I remember correctly I put an opening bid of $55 dollars on it in the auction because it looked interesting. I was surprised that no one else bid after that.

Again thanks for the info.

-southernasylum

[141FE]

The 1916 is a small ring Mauser action. Small ring Mauser actions are not strong enough for the pressure of 308. I have owned a couple of these and loaded reduced loads for them.

[Murgatroy]

I own a Civil Gaurdia Model. I have had it for as long as I can remember. And to be completely honest, I have never shot it due to all the conflicting issues about .308 versus 7.62x51NATO and on and on.

I have some .308 blanks, maybe I will shoot those in it to make myself feel special.

[Guest guardlobo]

I'd go with very low powered reloads, but it would be wise to take it to a gunsmith to check whether you should just leave it as a wall hanger.

[Westwindmike]

I load 9.0 grains of Trail Boss behind a Lee 160 grain cast boolit. It is extremely mild with velocities in the 1200 range.

That load comes from this article:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/trailbosskiss/pdf/trailbosskiss.pdf

They were trying to come up with a load that would work in most any old surplus rifle. It works great in my 1916 and my FR-8.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Westwindmike

[southernasylum]

Thanks again for the info. I think for now I'll leave it in the safe or mount it on the wall. If I get the itch to fire a vintage rifle again, perhaps I'll invest in a mosin or something similar in the future.

-southernasylum