Property defence?

[Guest Dusty Rhodes]

I have been told by an NRA instructor that it is illegal to use deadly force in Tennessee to protect property.

True or not true?

[The Rabbi]

I have been told by an NRA instructor that it is illegal to use deadly force in Tennessee to protect property.

True or not true?

100% true.

AFAIK Texas is the only state where you can, and then under pretty strict conditions.

[saintsfanbrian]

The only time you can protect property is if you are in reasonable fear for your life while it is being taken. If a man is in your driveway taking your car you cannot confront him with a gun. You can take a gun out there (if you choose to be so bold) and if they confront you with a means that would reasonably lead you to fear for your life you can use what ever mean necessary to stop the threat but you cannot "effect an arrest" with a gun for some one taking your property.

[molonlabetn]

All true. The way the law is written, deadly force is only justified when used to repel or halt an attack on your person which you reasonably believe will result in serious bodily harm or death.

Also, however, if someone forcibly enters your property while you are present, the law assumes that they are there to harm you.

The ideal result is that the police will only hear your side of the story, though, anyways...

[Mike.357]

and if they confront you with a means that would reasonably lead you to fear for your life you can use what ever mean necessary to stop the threat but you cannot "effect an arrest" with a gun for some one taking your property.

Some of this I am not so sure about. If you go outside with a firearm with the intent to dissuade a thief causing him to come at you and if you use that gun will the court say that you escalated it into a gunfight or will they say you were in fear for your life?

Now say you go outside with a camera and start taking pictures of the thief doing his business, yelling that police have been called or what-not and you are posessing a gun on your person, not visible, and he comes at you could you then use that firearm?

Or would this be the same thing as escalating a confrontation into a gun fight?

[molonlabetn]

38-2-102. Resistance by party about to be injured. —

Resistance sufficient to prevent the offense may be made by the party about to be injured to prevent an:

(1) Offense against the party's person; or

(2) Illegal attempt by force to take or injure property in the party's lawful possession.

[Fallguy]

I too have to disagree with a couple of things brian said.

First there is a difference between the "threat" of force and "use" of force.

T.C.A. 39-11-614 Protection of property. says

(a) A person in lawful possession of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against another, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

( A person who has been unlawfully dispossessed of real or personal property is justified in threatening or using force against the other, when and to the degree it is reasonably believed the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property, if the person threatens or uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession:

(1)

The person reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when the other dispossessed the person; and

(2)

The other accomplished the dispossession by threatening or using force against the person.

© A person is not justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on real estate or unlawful interference with personal property.

Parts (a) and ( say you can threaten force to the degree needed. Part © says you can not "use" deadly force, not that you can't "threaten" it.

Also here is the law on use of force in a "citizens arrest"

T.C.A. 39-11-621 Use of deadly force by private citizen.

A private citizen, in making an arrest authorized by law, may use force reasonably necessary to accomplish the arrest of an individual who flees or resists the arrest; provided, that a private citizen cannot use or threaten to use deadly force except to the extent authorized under self-defense or defense of third person statutes, §§ 39-11-611 and 39-11-612.

-

Just to clarify, although 39-11-621 says you can not threaten deadly force unless 39-11-611 or 39-11-612 apply...if the person is in your driveway or yard they are within the "curtilage" as used in 39-11-611.

Other Citizen Arrest laws.

T.C.A. 39-11-109 Arrest by private person — Grounds

T.C.A. 39-17-110 Arrest by private person — Time.

T.C.A. 39-11-111 Arrest by private person — Notice of grounds.

T.C.A. 39-11-112 Arrest by private person — Notice of intention to make arrest — Use of force to enter dwelling house.

T.C.A. 39-11-113 Disposition of person arrested by private person.

DISCLAIMER:

I am NOT a lawyer or law enforcement officer. The above is simply my lay interpretation of the law. It is not meant to be legal advice and/or suggest any certain course of action.

[Guest Engloid]

There was actually a case here in Knoxville, a while back, in which a local politician had some things stolen from a warehouse or storage area. He took a day off work and waited with his gun. When the people came, he used the gun to help hold them until the police arrived. He was not charged with a crime.

[Mike.357]

warehouse or storage area.

was he indoors or outdoors? I kind of remember this but am unsure of details. Indoors, in his leased or owned property I would think pulling a gun would be lawful, outdoors I am not so sure.

[Fallguy]

I still say outside on your own property it is legal.

What about the story of the guy who chased the BG that attacked his mother from MS into TN close to Memphis? He even ended up shooting the BG after he came towards him and had been ordered not to. This was not only not of the owner's property but after having gave chase.

[Fallguy]

It appears Senator Tim Burchett held them at gunpoint while outside any building.

http://www.wbir.com/news/archive.aspx?storyid=39684

About man who chased down mother's would be carjacker

http://wmcstations.com/global/story.asp?s=7281117&ClientType=Printable

[Guest Engloid]

was he indoors or outdoors? I kind of remember this but am unsure of details. Indoors, in his leased or owned property I would think pulling a gun would be lawful, outdoors I am not so sure.

I wasn't thinking when I wrote that. I believe it was outdoors. My memory tells me that it was something like an outdoor area where stuff was stored, or maybe some storage buildings. I dont think he actually caught them in a building, but may have caught them before or after entry.

[Ruprect]

It is not illegal to brandish a firearm when someone is stealing your property, you just can't shoot to stop them from taking it. Now if they attempt to take your gun from you, thats a different story.

You can also kick the sh*t out of them if they are taking your stuff, but stop short of serious bodily injury(i.e. broken bones or permanent injuries).

MAKE SURE IT IS CLEAR THAT THE PROPERTY IS YOURS. Finding them later on after the initial theft has occured is a no no.

[Mike.357]

I seriously doubt Tim Burchette would be arrested for that even if it was brandishing or whatever. He is a real good guy. I have never heard the first bad thing said about him.

If he did it I will also assume it is very legal.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

It is not illegal to brandish a firearm when someone is stealing your property, you just can't shoot to stop them from taking it. Now if they attempt to take your gun from you, thats a different story.

You can also kick the sh*t out of them if they are taking your stuff, but stop short of serious bodily injury(i.e. broken bones or permanent injuries).

MAKE SURE IT IS CLEAR THAT THE PROPERTY IS YOURS. Finding them later on after the initial theft has occured is a no no.

This is why I keep blunt instruments as handy as my firearms. I doubt if you knock a guy out who is stealing your property in a non-threating manner (i.e. unarmed snatch and run). I doubt any court would find you used unnecessary force when you knocked him out with your bat, hammer, pipe, or whatever.

[Guest bkelm18]

This is why I keep blunt instruments as handy as my firearms. I doubt if you knock a guy out who is stealing your property in a non-threating manner (i.e. unarmed snatch and run). I doubt any court would find you used unnecessary force when you knocked him out with your bat, hammer, pipe, or whatever.

How exactly do you knock someone out with a pipe/bat/hammer without doing permanent damage?

[Fallguy]

How exactly do you knock someone out with a pipe/bat/hammer without doing permanent damage?

By making sure you have a top quality pipe/bat/hammer that is made to stand up to tough conditions.

[Guest bkelm18]

By making sure you have a top quality pipe/bat/hammer that is made to stand up to tough conditions.

Haha. True. I'm sure the BG's skull will cushion the impact enough.

[strickj]

i use a 2 ton jack handle for this.i keep it between my drivers side door jam and seat for quick access whil geting in/out of car.its about 2 ft long with a nice nipple on one end and a nice grip on the other.

[Mousegun]

a local politician

The operative phrase in this sinerio

[creeky]

How exactly do you knock someone out with a pipe/bat/hammer without doing permanent damage?

Nerf bat?

Start wailing in on him, then after about 4 or 5 hits he comes at you...

shoot him.

"Your Honor... I tried to defend myself peaceably... but he just kept comming!"

[Guest bkelm18]

Nerf bat?

Start wailing in on him, then after about 4 or 5 hits he comes at you...

shoot him.

"Your Honor... I tried to defend myself peaceably... but he just kept comming!"

Haha, he just kept coming, and I just kept whippin his ass.

[Guest canynracer]

Some of this I am not so sure about. If you go outside with a firearm with the intent to dissuade a thief causing him to come at you and if you use that gun will the court say that you escalated it into a gunfight or will they say you were in fear for your life?

Now say you go outside with a camera and start taking pictures of the thief doing his business, yelling that police have been called or what-not and you are posessing a gun on your person, not visible, and he comes at you could you then use that firearm?

Or would this be the same thing as escalating a confrontation into a gun fight?

I have a permit to carry... so the story goes like this... "I was headed out to the store, I had my gun on, as I always do...I walked out, and saw dude breaking into my car...I yelled STOP!!!" how he reacts to me yelling, determines my next action...if he reaches, I would assume that the crook has a weapon, so I HOPE I would draw...if he runs, I can yell stop again..but use my cell to call the cops while being a good witness

just cause you walk out with a gun, doesnt mean "brandish" I chose to "open carry" that day...that is how I got to my gun so fast...I had no idea he was breaking into my car...

guess my point is...its "How" you see him in the act...if you knew it enough to carry a camera, then of course, you could have avoided it all together...

but if you didnt know, and walked outside...well then, you were suprised...

About man who chased down mother's would be carjacker

http://wmcstations.com/global/story.asp?s=7281117&ClientType=Printable

I hear ya...but this is different, the son reacted to his mother scream...the BG had a shotgun to her head, the son knew this the entire time he was chasing the BG...when the BG got out, the son had "reason to believe" the thug had a weapon...