Series 1 Tactical Handgun Course Oct. 9th in Dickson

[bigwakes]

Just wanted to let you guys know about a training course in Dickson, TN. You can contact Rick or Phil 615-446-5505 at Dickson Sportsman's Store to register. It's a 10 hour class that requires 500 rounds (reloads are allowed). The cost is $150 and you have to pre-register for the class. The class is offered by David Cole at the Dickson Police Firing Range. The class is this Saturday and there are still about 10 spots open.

Denny Elliott is the instructor. He is a law enforcement officer and SWAT team member. He has written tactical weapon courses that are attended by SWAT team members throughout the U.S. and Canada. He is currently a sniper and training officer with a Middle Tennessee Sheriff's office.

I will be there along with a few shooting buddies. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Edited October 6, 2010 by bigwakes

[tt0511]

My wife and I were there and we really had a great time. Denny and the fellas were quite entertaining. I am no pro but we really believe we are better for the training we received from Denny and feel much more prepared to defend ourselves. I don't believe that feeling is just a feeling either. We know how to train and what to practice, and feel that the drills we performed were practical and useful. We look forward to taking classes from Denny in the future. I liked how he explained why we were doing each exercise and how it relates to real world situations. It was our first training outside of our permit class and watching television shows on the subject and I feel it was right on track. About the only complaint I have is that I am very exhausted from the course, ) I believe it was around 10 hours long. A very full day. A very fun day. A very illuminating day. I hope some of the other attendees will post their opinions on the class. I am curious to know what the material and drills will be for the level 2 course if Denny decides to go forward with it next year.

[TN-popo]

I've known Denny for a few years now...he's a solid, no BS guy.

[bigwakes]

The class was great. My thumb is still sore from reloading mags. Great instruction organized in a consise way to take us from basics to advanced shooting in one day. Safety was spot on and I hear Denny is putting together a carbine course in the spring. The guys at Cole Personal safety have a great range setup. Check them out for your CCW class.

[Oh Shoot]

My wife and I were there and we really had a great time. ...

So, did you notice all 5 of the Springfield XDs in use there malfunctioning, as was reported in another thread?

What guns did you and your wife use?

- OS

Edited October 13, 2010 by OhShoot

[tt0511]

Yeah, you already know we both were shooting the XD-9 subcompacts. Both guns were new and not broken in if that matters with these firearms. My gun and my wife's each had one failure to feed out of the 450 approximate rounds. I read something this morning about someone with this exact problem. They thought there was something wrong with the gun when in fact they found out by having a friend observe them shooting that they had unknowingly engaged the slide lock. I really wonder if that wasn't what happened to me. It also may have been a case of the mag not being fully inserted. That was my original suspicion. In either case, I don't believe either of those qualifies as a malfunction on the part of the gun. Not sure about the wife's instance or what caused that.

We'll definitely be paying attention to the guns over the next 4-500 rounds to be sure they are reliable. If they end up not being reliable, they may say goodbye. Good thing my normal carry is a 1911. )

My father in law is the one who had the reverse stovepipe with a live round in his service size XD, twice! That was the weirdest thing I've ever seen. Not sure how that happened or what the cause was. He really needs to keep an eye on that. If it happened to me, I'd probably send it back to Springfield.

I remember all 3 of us using the XD, but don't recall anyone else having one or having trouble. To be fair, my Glock 36 had several stovepipes in the first 500 rounds. All guns malfunction at some point. The real issue is how often and why. If it's user error, fix it. If it's a true gun malfunction not due to user error, that's a different story.

**EDIT** - Just spoke to the wife and she said that she thinks her issue came right after a reload when she dropped a mag, inserted a new one, and maybe did not rack the slide all the way causing the chambered round to get hung up while a new round in the mag was trying to ramp into position. That's what she things happened. If that indeed is the case, that could happen to any Glock on the planet.

Edited October 16, 2010 by tt0511

[TN-popo]

They thought there was something wrong with the gun when in fact they found out by having a friend observe them shooting that they had unknowingly engaged the slide lock.

I was issued an XD45 for several years and I'm a Springfield XD Armorer.

I shoot with a thumbs forward grip and my thumb rested on the slide lock lever while shooting (it basically ended up being my thumbrest) resulting in the slide never locking back on the last round. I just learned to live with it as I was not going to change my firing grip for just one weapon that I wasn't crazy about in the first place.

Not here to trash the XD, but I'm glad that I have a G23 back in my duty holster.

Edited October 20, 2010 by TN-popo

[tt0511]

Though this really isn't the right place in the forum for this type of discussion, since others opened the subject I figure I might as well give an update. Went to the range yesterday and fired around 300 rounds or more through the XD-9 SC. Had one issue, ...the exact same issue, only once. It is as suspected. The firing grip I was taught to use at the course with both thumbs forward results in me occassionally hitting the slide lock and locking the slide open during firing. This is what happened once yesterday, and once on the day of the course. Not a malfunction at all. This can't be uncommon, as I've seen way too many firearms with the slide lock in the same exact spot.

The wife had zero issues with her XD yesterday firing a few less rounds than I did. She did have one issue with my 1911. The same issue. With both of her thumbs forward, she managed to hit the slide release on the last round so that the slide didn't lock back. I specifically asked Denny at the course if this would be the result of having both thumbs forward on the slide in that area and he said he'd never had an issue with it. I guess my engineering mind is just far too observant for most as I specifically foresaw this issue with that grip. That grip IS however the standard grip style as every handgun television show or video I've ever seen shows the shooter using this grip. I just have to figure out what my wife and I need to do differently to work around this and make it muscle memory. I wouldn't mind some input on this issue as I'm sure it's common. But, discussion about which firearm is better because of "so and so" is not part of the dialog at this point seeing that it is simply NOT a failure/malfunction issue. Maybe a design issue, but that's hard to argue unless you want to attack Browning's 1911 design and pretty much every other semi-auto manufacturers design.

Both of our issues are technique issues and have absolutely nothing to do with the quality or dependability of the firearm.

[Mike]

Move your strong hand thumb out a little to rest on your support hand. This keeps the thumb off the slide lock and still gives you a thumbs forward grip.

This causes my slide to not lock back at all on the last round.

Problem solved.

[TN-popo]

tt0511...yeah, if I ever engaged it and the slide locked open while firing then I would do as Mike posted (great post, btw).

The only gun that I ever did that with was a HiPower.

[bigwakes]

In the class, Denny had our strong hand thumb underneath the weak hand thumb. Felt awkward to me like crossing my thumbs or something. I went back to what I have always done which is similar to Mike, but my weak hand thumb is not as far forward. It does have my strong hand thumb not coming into contact at all with the frame, but resting on my left thumb.

[Mike]

http://corneredcat.com/Images5/sm_Solid.jpg

Like this?

That feels all kinds of goofy on a semi auto pistol. I do a similar grip on revolvers, but only because you can't run thumbs forward on them.

Mike

Edited October 21, 2010 by Mike

[bigwakes]

http://corneredcat.com/Images5/sm_Solid.jpg

Like this?

That feels all kinds of goofy on a semi auto pistol. I do a similar grip on revolvers, but only because you can't run thumbs forward on them.

Mike

That is similar to the hold Denny was teaching except the thumbs were much higher. If I think about it I'll post some pics tonight of his way and my way.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Looks like a revolver grip.

[Guest CK1]

Strong-hand thumb under the support-hand? That would be opposite of just about every world-class trainer out there.

From what I've seen or researched, just about every single one of them teaches and advocates the thumbs-forward grip (aka IPSC-grip or Enos-grip), some even go so far as to say that if a gun interferes with a good thumbs-forward grip, then one should get a different gun if it's up to them (incidentally, big part of the reason Sig's popularity as a duty weapon has waned and why the XD's haven't made significant inroads into the LEO/Militery markets, shooter-induced malfunctions due to accidentally hitting their levers do to their placement). A thumb-forward grip allows for getting the most skin-to-grip area, 360 degree grip-contact, faster follow up shots, and the positive side-effect of training the shooter muscle-memory to point both thumbs at the target during panic situations when they'll be unable to focus on the front sight rather than the threat providing good index for high hit probability.

Just posting because this has me confused, most training courses I've heard of would most likely implore you NOT to grip like that, if there's any reason to shoot with one's thumb tucked under like that someone please enlighten me?

Edited October 21, 2010 by CK1

[bigwakes]

This is the grip the class was teaching.

This is my grip.

[Guest CK1]

I'd say stick with yours (if you want to split hairs, maybe try to roll/cant your support-hand wrist some more to get more skin on the gun and fit into the gap left by your strong-hand, but to each his own).

Think this article explains both types fairly well, although you'd be hard pressed to find many really good shooters using the thumb-over-thumb these days: The Combat Handgun Grip

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

This is the grip the class was teaching.

This is my grip.

Yikes.

A grip like that forces the palm away from the pistol grip, giving you less contact. Your grip is much better.

[Mike]

Yeah that grip sucks.

[Guest SA SC40]

I carry a SA SC40 and have had the same experience as mentioned. While no one wants a malfunction to occur, we must be prepared to clear and continue with an engagement. I am inclined to think that a primary reason this issue exists with the subcompact is because of its design. At this point, awareness and practice are my only solutions.

[Oh Shoot]

I've never taken a handgun course, tactical or defensive, but I have 3 XD 9's, the SC, service, and tactical and have never had a failure with any of the three.

Strong hand thumb goes in thumb groove below slide stop/release button and stays there, never elevates, either using both hands or one hand.

Never a prob, but I guess I'm not doing it correctly.

- OS

[Guest redbarron06]

Getting back to the course, are there any plans on doing it again?

[TNRobocop]

I am an instructor with Denny under High Ground Training Group. We list all upcoming courses on his websites:

Home

Home

We were talking about another handgun as well as a rifle course, but nothing firm yet.

[bigwakes]

I did get an email about an upcoming level one and I think level two class being held in Franklin at the Williamson County Sheriff's range. It's not listed on his site though. Services give Denny a call to get his pistol schedule.

[Guest redbarron06]

I am an instructor with Denny under High Ground Training Group. We list all upcoming courses on his websites:

Home

Home

We were talking about another handgun as well as a rifle course, but nothing firm yet.

I think I saw your group down in Tullahoma back on the 1st when we were out doing our AWQ down ther for the guard.