Firefighters let man's home burn down over $75 fee.

[Fallguy]

You are trying to justify what these clowns did by saying it would have been illegal; there is nothing to indicate that.

I have always said that I am not worried about the military or cops going around collecting guns because they would not do it; it is wrong. Maybe I am wrong. According to you these guys failed to act because they thought they had been given a lawful order? Let’s hope none of them are cops or National Guard because if someone told them to go start collecting guns; they just might try. Seems a few here might help them.

I have to say this…. I worked it a fairly big city (100,000). As I said before I worked with Firemen everyday and my Father in law was one. What happened here is no more the norm for Firemen than a cop doing something stupid and everyone bashing cops in general. What is different here is that people are usually pretty quick to judge cops and Firemen are usually the good guys. Mistakes were made. If one person gave an order to stand by and do nothing, then that person will have to answer for it. It doesn’t matter whether or not he had the legal authority to do what he did or not. The citizens in the area will have to decide if that is the person they want calling the shots for the FD. I certainly wouldn’t want him in that position. He has shown that he just doesn’t have what it takes to be a first responder.

I’m really surprised at this thread though. No wonder common sense in guns laws is so hard to obtain.

The only mistake here was the guy not paying for his only source of Fire Protection. The only one that has anything to answer for is him. The citizens of the area where this guy lives (county) have nothing to decided when it comes to who runs the city Fire Department. If the citizens of that area are truly concerned about fire protection they can save their $75 and buy their own Fire Truck as several volunteer FD's have done in my area and start their own department.

I have to say I'm a bit surprised at this thread as well.....so many want to defend or at least excuse someone who made their own poor decision and blame those that were willing to offer a service they didn't have to. I agree with what someone else posted....South Fulton may very well decided to stop the fee program and just keep their trucks home after all of this. Then the people of that area will be without period, whethere they are willing to pay and/or remember to pay or not.

I'm sure as individuals they wanted to respond. I work for a DoD contractor, The Fire Trucks we have are owned by the Army, the Ambulances are part of the GSA fleet. If there was a fire or accident somewhere involving someone I knew....I couldn't just go get the Truck or Ambulance because it may be the right thing to do. That equipment is not mine. The equipment at the neighbor's didn't belong to firemen (unlike some Vol Dept) it didn't even belong to the citizens of Obion County (that this guy is one of) it belonged to the City of South Fulton.

Now I know there are Emergency Personal that would respond to a call 100 miles from home if they could, but that just isn't the way things are normally.

[BigK]

Right or wrong, the exposure this story got may do some good for small FD's struggling to procure funds to protect their area. I mean, nobody wants to be the next guy whose house burns down and has no fire subscription.

If the FD had put out the fire anyway in this case AND the same amount of exposure had been given to how he didn't pay and they provided service anyway, what would happen then? I'll tell you, most rural fire protection subscribers all over the country would do what Crannick did. They'd wait to offer payment until they needed service and the FD would have no funds in advance, when they need it the most.

[Fallguy]

Yep...although not called "Fire Insurance" this is basically what a subscription fee is in these cases.

No telling the money I could save if I didn't have to pay my health insurance premium until I got sick, or my car insurance premium until I had an accident.

[RobertNashville]

It isn't WalMart. It's not their job to collect payments. It's not their job to perform loss prevention and theft from non payment.

It's their job to put out fires.

I have no problem with them needing to make money. We all need to make money.

But doing so while a family's home is ablaze is just, well, horrible.

Never bought anything in, or from NC.

I've been to NC once in my life and it didn't work out too well so I haven't been back

Frankly; you were not entitled to any help for your accident that happened in NC...you got help and that's great but you were not entitled to it...as has already been mentioned and which was true where I grew up; there was no EMS service or FD and wasn't for many, many years so if you had had an accident in my county in Ohio you were left to the efforts of whoever happened to find you to get you someplace that could help.

You seem to be one of the most vocal about how wrong this was of the SFFD to not act...I mentioned above about contributing to a fund to help the victim buy a new trailer...if you can find a fund to contribute to (I suspect that one exists somewhere) and contribute to it I'll match your contribution up to $50 (we can work out the details by PM)...at least maybe that will put this thread to bed!

If for whatever reason you can't contribute then I'll make the same promise to whoever does contribute (and contacts me with the details) first.

Just to be clear, this is a maximum contribution offer from me of up to a $50 match to whoever on TGO contributes first; it is not open ended to everyone; just the first TGO member who contributes!

Edited October 8, 2010 by RobertNashville

[TGO David]

So you'll match up to $50 for however many TGO members donate?

Generous.

[daddyo]

So you'll match up to $50 for however many TGO members donate?

Generous.

I read it to mean that he would match either StrickJ's donation up to $50 or the first one who puts up the money. Not everyone.

[DaveTN]

I wouldn’t donate a dime to help this guy. I don’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade if he has a place to live either.

That doesn’t mean that I would support a bunch of men that want to call themselves Fist Responders standing by and doing nothing. If they want to argue what they did was right they need to find a new line of work; they don’t have what it takes.

There are bad people in every job; rarely do we see them as Fire Fighters. This is a very isolated incident where a few men made a bad choice. I can honestly say that if I was on the scene that truck would have been putting water on that house fire. If I lost my job; so be it. Who needs a job like that, or to work with people like that?

[BigK]

Some reports are coming in that, instead of an annual $75 fee, they could have had a meager $0.13 increase in property taxes but was voted down.

Can anyone confirm this? Who would be against a few pennies added to their taxes to ensure fire protection?

I heard about this from a caller on the radio that said they live in that area. If true, the rural residents voted down a thirteen cent property tax hike that would have funded rural fire service!

Well, why don't we talk about those heartless firefighting bastards in Clarksville, Nashville, or Memphis? They didn't (and wouldn't) send out their crews to respond to this fire, either. They'd tell him he was outside their coverage area, exactly like South Fulton.

Awesome point, I was thinking the same thing. Why aren't South Fulton's detractors blaming the FD in Union City or Martin or even Memphis? The term "out of our coverage area" extends from zero inches to infinity.

Yea we get the emotion thing. Everybody has emotions. While a person didn't die, 3 pets did. That's only a step down for me.

Yeah, we all have emotions. So should Gene Crannick! Why didn't he get his poor pets out himself (he had 2 hours according his own statements). I would have gotten my pets out immediately after getting my family out!

[Fallguy]

Losing your job is one thing going to jail is another, or at least being held personally liable for wrong doing....no "qualified immunity" like there is for LE.

But these Fire Fighters did not "work" for the county of Obion anyway, they "worked" for the City of South Fulton. Does anyone if the SFFD is a full-time paid department anyway...or is it just volunteers using city owned equipment.

I do work for a full-time paid department....but I can't take the equipment anywhere I choose and do with it what I want, no matter how noble my intentions may be.

[RobertNashville]

So you'll match up to $50 for however many TGO members donate?

Generous.

I said "first" - once someone starts, whoever that is, I'll match it up to $50 but that's as much as I can do.

[RobertNashville]

I wouldn’t donate a dime to help this guy. I don’t give a rolling rip down a razor blade if he has a place to live either.

That doesn’t mean that I would support a bunch of men that want to call themselves Fist Responders standing by and doing nothing. If they want to argue what they did was right they need to find a new line of work; they don’t have what it takes.

There are bad people in every job; rarely do we see them as Fire Fighters. This is a very isolated incident where a few men made a bad choice. I can honestly say that if I was on the scene that truck would have been putting water on that house fire. If I lost my job; so be it. Who needs a job like that, or to work with people like that?

So you don't care about the guy who lost his home, only that this FD didn't do what you say they should have done?

If you don't care about the victim why should the SFFD? I mean...isn't care for the victim one of if not the primary reasons that there are fire departments...or are you suggesting that the trailer is more important then the man? And if, like you, the SFFD shouldn't care about the victim why the hell should they put their lives and equipment (that isn't theirs to do with as they please) at risk? I truly don't understand your reasoning here.

Moving on; I've not heard it reported that a single one of them have called him/herself a "first responder". I also haven't heard it reported that any of them defending that what they did was "right" or say much of anything at all for that matter. So...I'm wondering where you are getting your information from because I if it is being reported I've missed it.

You seem to feel pretty strongly that these guys (and/or gals) are pretty worthless (or "bad people") and apparently every single one of them are bad since not a single one of them did what you insist they should have done (and regardless of the consequences)...have you contacted SFFD individuals to tell them how you feel about them?

Edited October 8, 2010 by RobertNashville

[Guest HvyMtl]

This is what I see happening: The backlash will make the fire dept quit their service outside their jurisdiction. They will discontinue the $75/year fee for outside the jurisdiction. Therefore, there will be NO coverage for the area.

FYI: First responders are EMTs, considered part of the ambulance service, even though they are driving a fire truck... In Nashville, they may show up in an Impala, like a Cop would, but they are still part of the ambulance service... And as a cost saving measure, Nashville has firefighters cross trained as EMT. Cause it seems to be quicker to send a firetruck (as there are few fires in Nashville) than to just send an Ambulance (as injury calls occur all the time...) Same would go for NC...

And yes, were you hurt in an area with no ambulance support (several areas exist throughout the nation) you would be on your own. And yes, there were pay for coverage ambulance services in Nashville as late as 1960's, until the tax payer footed the bill. No pay? No pick up. That simple.

But the governments, not liking the situation, have been supplying this support, through taxing you. The reason the fellows in NC picked you up is simple. Reciprocity. They expect TN ambulance services to take care of a NC citizen who gets hurt, so they took care of you... If NC ambulance services refused to carry you, a NON-citizen, do you think TN ambulances would react negatively to NC citizens?

Edited October 8, 2010 by HvyMtl

[DaveTN]

So you don't care about the guy who lost his home, only that this FD didn't do what you say they should have done?

Correct.

If you don't care about the victim why should the SFFD? I mean...isn't care for the victim one of if not the primary reasons that there are fire departments...or are you suggesting that the trailer is more important then the man? And if, like you, the SFFD shouldn't care about the victim why the hell should they put their lives and equipment (that isn't theirs to do with as they please) at risk? I truly don't understand your reasoning here.

I can’t type any slower and I’m not using big words. Let me try this…

Two issues are going on here:

1. The city is strong arming the residents for fire protection. Do I agree with that? Couldn’t care less; as someone else said if they don’t like it they can move. Do I think its right? Of course it isn’t right; it isn’t right at face value.

2. Is the issue of the Fire Department being on-scene and not doing their job because this guy hadn’t paid his $75. I have never been a Fireman, but I have been a cop and that isn’t how it works for cops or for Firemen where I was. Not because of the laws; but because we had professionals that would not stand by and allow such silliness to happen. Fire them? You must be crazy; that would be a career ending move for anyone that tried.

Moving on; I've not heard it reported that a single one of them have called him/herself a "first responder". I also haven't heard it reported that any of them defending that what they did was "right" or say much of anything at all for that matter. So...I'm wondering where you are getting your information from because I if it is being reported I've missed it.

I don’t know what you are talking about. I said I haven’t read this whole thread; I asked if these were real firemen and no one replied. Were these just some guys in town that happened to have a fire truck and had a little side business going? I obviously don’t have the information you have because you are justify what they did. Am I missing something?

You seem to feel pretty strongly that these guys (and/or gals) are pretty worthless (or "bad people") and apparently every single one of them are bad since not a single one of them did what you insist they should have done (and regardless of the consequences)...have you contacted SFFD individuals to tell them how you feel about them?

Are you a fireman? Come on man… how often do we see the Fire Department screwing up? Hardly ever. The threads about Firemen are always about how they just saved a baby from a burning building or got an old lady’s cat out of a tree. Firemen sit at the right hand of God; we never rip on them because they do their job. These guys didn’t and they aren’t deserving of the title.

Tell them how I feel about them? I bet they don’t GAF how I feel about them, and they shouldn’t. But I bet they are getting ready to find out how the citizens in their area feel about them. I predict that at least whoever gave the order for them not to put that fire out is done.

[Guest Jamie]

Come on man… how often do we see the Fire Department screwing up? Hardly ever. The threads about Firemen are always about how they just saved a baby from a burning building or got an old lady’s cat out of a tree. Firemen sit at the right hand of God; we never rip on them because they do their job. These guys didn’t and they aren’t deserving of the title

If you want stories of firemen assing off, I've got at least a couple, ranging from firefighters starting fires so their company would have something to do, all the way down to several volunteer firefighters getting bored and going around to a couple of local parks and rec areas and tipping over the porta-poties.

Sorry, but they're just as human as everybody else, and certainly not "sitting at the right hand of God".

I suppose the reason you don't hear more about how fallible firemen are is because most of the things they tend to do wrong aren't all that newsworthy... nobody tends to get shot or killed, nobody gets framed, there's almost never any drug trafficking or organized crime involved. Basically they don't tend to have the same involvement with the criminal element that the LEOs do, so there doesn't tend to be the same view regarding them when they do screw up. ( None of the "They're as bad as the people they're supposed to be catching", for instance. )

Anyway, yeah, I've seen the local FD boys get themselves into hot water just about as often the PD and SO folks, over the years. The only real difference was how or if it was reported by the media.

[G27]

Just an FYI:

My name is Kelly Edmison. Chief of Union City Fire Dept. Union City TN. OBION County. We are 1 of the 8 city fire dept’s in Obion County. My department is the only fully paid dept.

Even though my department (Union City, TN) was not the department involved, it has been extremely hard viewing the news media storm this past week; especially, when no one has reported the truth about the situation yet.

Watching news cast after news cast with miss information makes me wonder just how much “other†news we see nightly about our country and world events is turned and twisted.

Obion County Tennessee does not have a county fire department. It does have 8 municipal fire departments. Union City, TN is the only full time staffed department in the county. The other 7 departments are volunteer departments; but like Union City, are city departments. Again, Obion County does not have a county fire department. Sadly, Obion County is one of two counties in the state who do not provide fire protection. County residents do pay county taxes. However, no tax money goes towards fire coverage. The 8 municipal departments are funded by each of their city tax payers.

Three of the cities, Union City, Kenton and South Fulton operate a subscription fire service in an attempt to help the rural people in their respective areas. Union City has operated this way for over 47 years. They all three charge a $75 per year fee. It’s not a tax. It’s not mandatory. But the service is there if they wish. The reason these three charge a fee, is because the cities do not feel it fair to take the city tax payers money and service and give it to county residents for free.

Their policies are the same. With the exception of a life endanger; if you don’t pay; they don’t come.

However, once South Fulton had to respond to take care of the neighbor whose property caught fire and was a subscriber, that’s the point where in my opinion the outcome probably would have been different. But I’m not South Fulton.

But here is what the public doesn’t understand. Right, wrong or indifferent, it was not the decision of the South Fulton Fire Chief or of his firefighters to not put water on the structure. Their orders came from their city manager and mayor and council. Was it wrong? Everyone has an opinion (We would have put it out if for no other reason than that we had to come anyway and that was the damn fire that was endangering the neighbor who had the coverage.) If they had tried to put it out the chief would have been fired, the fire fighters terminated and there wouldn’t have been any body left to help fight fire for the majority of the rural residents in their area who do pay the annual fee.

The remaining 5 departments (city departments) in the county have been going out into the county without a subscription service with the hope that after responding they will bill the home owner and collect. It hasn’t been working. One of these departments even though it is a city department, has to get change out of their outside coke machine that sits on the front of their station just to have money to put fuel in their tank. They get very little help from their own city, let alone NO revenue from the county. Financially these departments will be forced to either go to a subscription based service or draw back into their respective city limits. If that happens, there won’t be any fire protection in three quarters of the county.

No firefighter wants to see a home go up in flames; but especially for the volunteer departments, the cake sales and fish fries just don’t cut it anymore. One set of gear to out fit a firefighter can exceed $3,000. A fire truck easily costs more than a quarter of a million dollars. How many cakes do you think it will take? And who again is paying for this? The “city†taxpayer.

The state of TN guarantees that as a tax payer; city or county, you are promised two things. One, garbage pickup will be provided. And two, law enforcement will be provided. Fire service apparently isn’t considered that important.

What people need to know is the fire problem in Obion County is NOT South Fulton’s problem or any of the other 7 departments. It’s a county problem.

The other 7 city chiefs and myself have been working with the county for over four years now in trying to convince then to go with a fire tax like most counties in this country operate and we would all gladly get rid of this subscription crap. The county currently wants all cities to go subscription and the county will collect and distribute.

I as an individual have been catching holy hell this week from all over the country, and wasn’t even the department involved. All I have been trying to do is defend some brother firefighters who weren’t given a choice as to what they could do; defending a program, though not perfect has been a successful program in Union City at least for over 47 years. South Fulton has run theirs for 20. It’s kept the doors open and help provided protection to a majority of rural customers in our Union City area who if it were not for the blessing of our city government would not have any fire protection what so ever because the County still does not want to pass a fire tax for county residents.

It has been one week. Not one letter to the editor has appeared in any of the papers. I’m not hearing complaints from the county residents. I’m only getting my ... chewed out from one end of the country to the other. I apologize for interrupting your forum. It’s late; I’m mad, and I wanted to vent. Honestly, this has been the most civil forum I have come across. And the only one I have taken part it.

Hope you all stay safe and please never judge until you have the facts.

[RobertNashville]

Correct.

Frankly, I find that surprising and disappointing…all this angst over what you have decided this FD should have done but you don’t care about the guy who lost his home??? Wow. Again I ask; if you don't care about the only person who actually suffered a loss in this mess; why the hell should this (or any other) FD care enough to risk their lives and their equipment?????

I can’t type any slower and I’m not using big words. Let me try this…:

Two issues are going on here:

1. The city is strong arming the residents for fire protection. Do I agree with that? Couldn’t care less; as someone else said if they don’t like it they can move. Do I think its right? Of course it isn’t right; it isn’t right at face value.

Strong arming…on what basis did you decide that? Exactly how and when did this city "strong arm" anyone? What exactly isn’t “right†about a service provider expecting to be paid for their service?

2. Is the issue of the Fire Department being on-scene and not doing their job because this guy hadn’t paid his $75. I have never been a Fireman, but I have been a cop and that isn’t how it works for cops or for Firemen where I was. Not because of the laws; but because we had professionals that would not stand by and allow such silliness to happen. Fire them? You must be crazy; that would be a career ending move for anyone that tried.

The FD was on the scene for one reason and only one reason, to protect the property of the property owner who had paid for the service - they had no duty (legal, moral or otherwise) to risk their lives or equipment for anyone else.

I don’t know what you are talking about. I said I haven’t read this whole thread; I asked if these were real firemen and no one replied. Were these just some guys in town that happened to have a fire truck and had a little side business going? I obviously don’t have the information you have because you are justify what they did. Am I missing something?

You don’t know what I’m talking about??? Ok…let me quote AGAIN from Post No. 232…

...That doesn’t mean that I would support a bunch of men that want to call themselves Fist Responders standing by and doing nothing. If they want to argue what they did was right they need to find a new line of work; they don’t have what it takes.

You claimed, as I quoted, that these men/women are calling themselves “First Respondersâ€. You claim that they “want to argue what they did was rightâ€. I’m asking you where you are getting the information to base those claims on because other than your claims, I haven't heard these firefighters do/say any such thing…what is not to understand?

Are you a fireman? Come on man… how often do we see the Fire Department screwing up? Hardly ever. The threads about Firemen are always about how they just saved a baby from a burning building or got an old lady’s cat out of a tree. Firemen sit at the right hand of God; we never rip on them because they do their job. These guys didn’t and they aren’t deserving of the title.

So am I supposed to “rip†on these guys now just because, according to you, we never do? I don’t rip on anyone unless I think they did something wrong and I don’t think these guys did anything wrong.

No, I am not a fireman nor have I ever been. I have served as a volunteer paramedic with two different fire departments and then with a totally separate volunteer EMS service…I guess all together I’ve done that for about 20 years although I don’t anymore.

Based on such comments about the “right hand of God†and how no one ever rips on them it’s sounding like you have some deeper and not so supportive feelings about firefighters in general that go far beyond this incident.

Tell them how I feel about them? I bet they don’t GAF how I feel about them, and they shouldn’t. But I bet they are getting ready to find out how the citizens in their area feel about them. I predict that at least whoever gave the order for them not to put that fire out is done.

I’ll take that bet.

What I think is going to happen is that this county will get their asses in order and start providing their own fire protection OR the folks who have been playing Russian roulette with their fire protection (by not paying the very tiny annual fee) are going to start paying…that’s what I think is going to happen.

As to telling them how you feel…I’m just suggesting that since you’ve spent so much time in this thread bashing this FD you ought to consider redirecting your efforts to the folks who you are actually mad at and maybe encourage them to change to something you find more acceptable...you can complain on this or any other forum all day long but it isn’t going to change a thing.

[RobertNashville]

Just an FYI:

That post ought to be the LAST post in this thread as I think it tells us everything we need to know.

[Rightwinger]

I call for the question

[Garufa]

Do you have a source for that quote Crimson?

One reason I ask is this:

Sadly, Obion County is one of two counties in the state who do not provide fire protection.

So out of 95 counties in this state Obion and Knox are the only two that do no provide fire protection? I live in Knox Co., the third biggest metro in the state and there is no county fire department. City yes, county no.

What county in this state has a fire department?

More BS....

The state of TN guarantees that as a tax payer; city or county, you are promised two things. One, garbage pickup will be provided.

Most county folk pay for trash pickup or haul it to the dump themselves.

I am doubting the veracity here.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Garufa

[Guest HexHead]

Did the man who refused to pay the $75 have ANY responsibility here?

Obviously not in TGO David's world.

[Mike.357]

this thread is full of fail

[Garufa]

this thread is full of fail

You got that right, Devil.

[Punisher84]

What county in this state has a fire department?

Shelby County does. Www.shelbycountytn.gov

[G27]

Do you have a source for that quote Crimson?

Another chief providing subscription service in Obion County, TN writes to STATter911.com. Read the detailed remarks from Chief Kelly Edmison, Union City FD. | STATter911.com

[Garufa]

Shelby County does. Www.shelbycountytn.gov

Yes, Shelby does. It is fee-based apparently and not government funded...

Shelby County Portal

In 1997 the Tennessee Attorney General ruled that the Shelby County Government could no longer legally fund any part of the Shelby County Fire Department.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Garufa