Firefighters let man's home burn down over $75 fee.

[Punisher84]

OK. Guy should have paid his fee, but I don't think I could stand idly by and watch someone's entire home and belongings burn to the ground. I don't get how this is being turned into a Conservative V. Liberal debate though. Especially considering Liberals are sme of the biggest supporters of "Zero Tolerance".

Rural Tennessee fire sparks conservative ideological debate | The Upshot Yahoo! News - Yahoo! News

Just about anything can be fodder for an ideological dispute these days. Just consider news of the recent fire at Gene Cranick's home in Obion County, Tenn. Here's the short version of what happened: In rural Obion County, homeowners must pay $75 annually for [services from the nearby city of South Fulton. If they don't pay the fee and their home catches fire, tough luck -- even if firefighters are positioned just outside the home with hoses at the ready.

Gene Cranick found this out the hard way.

When Cranick's house caught fire last week, and he couldn't contain the blaze with garden hoses, he called 911. During the emergency call, he offered to pay all expenses related to the defense of his home, but the South Fulton firefighters refused to do anything.

They did, however, come out when Cranick's neighbor -- who'd already paid the fee -- called 911 because he worried that the fire might spread to his property. Once they arrived, members of the South Fulton department stood by and watched Cranick's home burn; they sprang into action only when the fire reached the neighbor's property.

"I hadn't paid my $75 and that's what they want, $75, and they don't care how much it burned down," Gene Cranick told WPSD, an NBC affiliate in Kentucky. "I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong."

Watch a video report:

The incident has sparked a debate in many corners of the Web. Writers for the National Review, arguably the nation's most influential right-leaning voice, have seized on the episode to discuss the relative merits of compassionate conservatism versus a hard-line libertarianism. (See their arguments here, here, here, here and here.)

Daniel Foster, a self-described "conservative with fairly libertarian leanings" who writes for the magazine, took issue with the county's laissez-faire approach to firefighting, calling it "a kind of government for which I would not sign up."

"What moral theory allows these firefighters (admittedly acting under orders) to watch this house burn to the ground when 1) they have already responded to the scene; 2) they have the means to stop it ready at hand; 3) they have a reasonable expectation to be compensated for their trouble?" Foster wrote.

But Foster's colleague Kevin Williamson took the opposite view. Cranick's fellow residents in the rural stretches of Obion County had no fire protection until the county established the $75 fee in 1990. As Williamson explained: "The South Fulton fire department is being treated as though it has done something wrong, rather than having gone out of its way to make services available to people who did not have them before. The world is full of jerks, freeloaders, and ingrates — and the problems they create for themselves are their own. These free-riders have no more right to South Fulton's firefighting services than people in Muleshoe, Texas, have to those of NYPD detectives."

Liberals are pouncing on the Cranick fire as an illustration of what they take to be the callous indifference of a market regime that rewards privileged interests over the concerns of ordinary Americans.

"The case perfectly demonstrated conservative ideology, which is based around the idea of the on-your-own society and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well-off and privileged," Think Progress' Zaid Jilani wrote in a response to the National Review writers. "It has been 28 years since conservative historian Doug Wead first coined the term 'compassionate conservative.' It now appears that if any such philosophy ever existed, it has few adherents in the modern conservative movement."

Edited October 6, 2010 by Punisher84

[Il Duce]

i smell a lawsuit

[Punisher84]

i smell a lawsuit

I'm sure, but legally I don't see what grounds he would have. Morally I think it was wrong, but legally they were not obligated to put the fire out. Same way as the courts decided the police are not obligated to protect you.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I guess if I died and hadn't bought life insurance, the insurance company ought to pay off anyway just because it is the right thing to do.

If the guy didn't have fire insurance on that house, Allstate ought to pay anyway, just because.

[Garufa]

WTF is this a philosophical conservative/liberal issue?

This is the United States of America, nothing is free.

You either live in the city or pay a 3rd like Rural Metro (as I do) for fire protection. Looks like RM has a market to target in Obion. They will put your fire out even if you are not a subscriber....but you will pay...dearly.

It's like driving a car without insurance. You have the option to protect your investment but don't. Sorry.

[Il Duce]

This is America where hopes and dreams are built on lawsuits. He will sue and lose, but still sue nonetheless.

[Punisher84]

I guess if I died and hadn't bought life insurance, the insurance company ought to pay off anyway just because it is the right thing to do.

If the guy didn't have fire insurance on that house, Allstate ought to pay anyway, just because.

I think that's a little different. I think everyone can agree he didn't pay the fee bad on him, but I liken this to a cop standing by and watching a woman get raped and murdered just because she didn't pay a "police protection fee". Some things go beyond just a simple "He should have paid".

Years ago people helped their neighbors put out house fires. Now we watch them burn over 75 bucks?

[TGO David]

A__holes.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I think that's a little different. I think everyone can agree he didn't pay the fee bad on him, but I liken this to a cop standing by and watching a woman get raped and murdered just because she didn't pay a "police protection fee". Some things go beyond just a simple "He should have paid".

Years ago people helped their neighbors put out house fires. Now we watch them burn over 75 bucks?

We could make a law that everybody must buy fire services, and if they don't pay they go to jail or pay a hefty fine. If it works for health care reform, why not fire insurance?

[JeffL]

So they should have put out the fire even though he didn't pay for fire service? Hell, why should anyone pay for fire service if the fire department will just put it out anyway. He should have ponied up the $75.

Punisher, you know life and limb are not equal to someones possessions, your argument is invalid.

[mav]

I think this was an absolute shame. I understand the whole contract issue, but geeze louise. Thankfully nobody was stuck inside the house unable to get out. I swear, there are times that I hate all the government crap. Most of us pay a fortune in taxes, and the government wastes a large portion of it. How many boob jobs, lcd televisions, etc... were bought by some of the hurricane Katrina victims with the taxpayers money being handed out. But, we can't save a neighbor's house because he didn't pay $75. I guess the golden rule no longer applies.

Due to this tragic incident, I feel that their policy should be rewritten. They should state in their contract that the fire department will respond to all incidents, but if you have not paid the annual fire protection fee, you will pay the full cost of the firefighting crew. I think that is fair.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I think this was an absolute shame. I understand the whole contract issue, but geeze louise. Thankfully nobody was stuck inside the house unable to get out. I swear, there are times that I hate all the government crap. Most of us pay a fortune in taxes, and the government wastes a large portion of it. How many boob jobs, lcd televisions, etc... were bought by some of the hurricane Katrina victims with the taxpayers money being handed out. But, we can't save a neighbor's house because he didn't pay $75. I guess the golden rule no longer applies.

Due to this tragic incident, I feel that their policy should be rewritten. They should state in their contract that the fire department will respond to all incidents, but if you have not paid the annual fire protection fee, you will pay the full cost of the firefighting crew. I think that is fair.

I don't have a problem with rewriting their policy if that is what they want to do. Am sympathetic to the Golden Rule and all that.

OTOH, even if mandated to put out any fire, there would likely be geographical boundaries. What if somebody's house is burning down just a few yards past the service boundary line? If it is ok to put out that fire, then what if somebody's house is 100 yards outside? 1 mile? 10 miles?

[Mike.357]

here in Knox County Rural Metro will still come put your fire out, but they charge you 600 bucks per hour per truck dispatched.

[Punisher84]

We could make a law that everybody must buy fire services, and if they don't pay they go to jail or pay a hefty fine. If it works for health care reform, why not fire insurance?

Nobody is talking about insurance! This is not a case of the guy whining that he's not covered because he didn't buy insurance. He failed to pay a fee. He offered to pay the fee when he called 911. So wheres the argument now?

[mav]

here in Knox County Rural Metro will still come put your fire out, but they charge you 600 bucks per hour per truck dispatched.

I am totally fine with that. $2000-3000 lost to a service charge is better than losing everything.

[Punisher84]

So they should have put out the fire even though he didn't pay for fire service? Hell, why should anyone pay for fire service if the fire department will just put it out anyway. He should have ponied up the $75.

Punisher, you know life and limb are not equal to someones possessions, your argument is invalid.

He offered to when he called 911. And your argument is invalid, since some states actually allow the use of deadly force to protect property.

So if his children or pets had burned to death in the house it's still all gravy because he didn't pay the fee right?

Maybe the article was right about how opposing sides view this. This isn't about insurance, money, fees, or anything else. It's about being a decent ****ing person. I hope you and Lester aren't in any type of public service.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Nobody is talking about insurance! This is not a case of the guy whining that he's not covered because he didn't buy insurance. He failed to pay a fee. He offered to pay the fee when he called 911. So wheres the argument now?

I think the latter part of your statement is the real point here. The guy said he would pay. I think they should have put the fire out, sent him a bill, and then taken him to civil court if he didn't pay. I am a full believer in the free-market, but basic emergency services are a touchy area for me. That said, the guy knew the requirements, he gambled, and he lost. In this particular case, I think the fire department was in the right, but it's clear that they probably need to rethink the policy.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Nobody is talking about insurance! This is not a case of the guy whining that he's not covered because he didn't buy insurance. He failed to pay a fee. He offered to pay the fee when he called 911. So wheres the argument now?

Hi Punisher84

It seems the same as insurance to me, but I'm probably too dumb to see the distinction. If I go years not paying health insurance and then try to sign up AFTER diagnosed for cancer, should the insurance company be required to take me on short notice because NOW I'm finally offering to pay?

The law requires hospitals to render 'nearly unlimited' service regardless of the ability to pay. That is one reason taxes and insurance bills are so big. We contribute to charity every time we pay a health insurance premium or a hospital bill.

Dunno the solution to always be humane. Give everybody whatever they need regardless of whether they ever pay?

[Guest clownsdd]

So, from what I understand, the guy did not pay his bill and paid for it and is complaining about it. Think about it...what those that are condemning the fire dept are suggesting that just because something happens the gubment should step in and pay for it. It's the gubment's ie fire depts fault....and I guess you voted for nobama also? Is it not the responsibility of the owner of the property to keep everything up to date?.......while I could not stand by and do what I could to help, it's the owner's fault. What happened to the responsibility of the owner for not complying.

[Punisher84]

So, from what I understand, the guy did not pay his bill and paid for it and is complaining about it. Think about it...what those that are condemning the fire dept are suggesting that just because something happens the gubment should step in and pay for it. It's the gubment's ie fire depts fault....and I guess you voted for nobama also? Is it not the responsibility of the owner of the property to keep everything up to date?.......while I could not stand by and do what I could to help, it's the owner's fault. What happened to the responsibility of the owner for not complying.

Did you read the article? He said he would pay. He didn't ask for a hand out.

You guys that are comparing this to healthcare and insurance need to get a grip and read the full article and go beyond your own narrow views.

I'm not a supporter of forced healthcare and I'm not an Obama supporter. I'm talking about basic human decency.

I would have pulled the hose off the truck and put the fire out by myself if I was on that crew. If you wouldn't then I just hope you are never in a position to come on TGO and complain about anything because I'll be first in line to tell you it was your fault no matter what the spin.

Some of the responses here are why we are ****ed as a species.

[mav]

Did you read the article? He said he would pay. He didn't ask for a hand out.

You guys that are comparing this to healthcare and insurance need to get a grip and read the full article and go beyond your own narrow views.

I'm not a supporter of forced healthcare and I'm not an Obama supporter. I'm talking about basic human decency.

I would have pulled the hose off the truck and put the fire out by myself if I was on that crew. If you wouldn't then I just hope you are never in a position to come on TGO and complain about anything because I'll be first in line to tell you it was your fault no matter what the spin.

Some of the responses here are why we are ****ed as a species.

You know what is really crappy about the while situation? While they wouldn't respond to his call, they responded to his neighbor. They were at the scene and they could have done something after they finished the neighbor's property (the one who paid the $75). That is what really irked me; they were on the scene.

I understand the whole personal responsibility issue, and I agree. However, there are extenuating circumstances, such as a fire, when we can give that little extra even though someone was being irresponsible. As stated earlier, they should have put the fire out and billed him the total expense of putting the fire out.

[Punisher84]

You know what is really crappy about the while situation? While they wouldn't respond to his call, they responded to his neighbor. They were at the scene and they could have done something after they finished the neighbor's property (the one who paid the $75). That is what really irked me; they were on the scene.

I understand the whole personal responsibility issue, and I agree. However, there are extenuating circumstances, such as a fire, when we can give that little extra even though someone was being irresponsible. As stated earlier, they should have put the fire out and billed him the total expense of putting the fire out.

That's my point exactly. It's not that they just didn't respond they stood there ON SCENE and just watched. That is just inhuman to me.

I guess though if this thread was about cops screwing up everyone would be bashing the hell out of them. Guess everyone really does love firefighters.

[lowbud]

While it is pretty sad, they were not contracted to fight that fire. Simple as that.. Sorry..

[Guest mn32768]

My day job involves equipping E911 dispatch centers around the rural Southeast so I've got some insight to this case. Some background factoids:

• The guy Cranick had gotten a subscription offer from the South Fulton FD in mail for 20 years and never paid. So it was not like he didn't know the risk he was taking.
  
• He set up the fire himself in two barrels on his yard -- during a forest fire warning -- from where the fire spread to his house and threatened to burn his neighbors house.
  
• The fire occurred in the unincorporated Obion County and the City of South Fulton FD's insurance covers only dispatches to subscribers. Should the crew of the FD have violated their standing orders and risked their jobs, lives and the livelihoods of their families for a guy who was too cheap or ignorant to spring for a $75 subscription?
  
• The $75 annual fee does not cover the costs of even a single dispatch. If everyone decided to quit paying the $75 annual fee and just pay on the spot, there would be no funds to even have a FD.
  
• Neither the 911 dispatchers nor the FD crew on call could have legally accepted the guy's offer to pay the $75 on the spot.
  
• According to some web sites I've read, rural FDs collect about 40% of fees if they are charged after the fact and don't have the resources to go to court to collect unpaid fees.
  
• Being a first responder in rural Tennessee is not exactly a financially rewarding job. They put long hours in their own time away from their families and put their own money to buy equipment because the subscription fees don't cover all the costs.
  

Long and short, I'd recommend those of you who criticize the fire department put your money where you mouth is and join your local volunteer FD.

[Guest GT_Rat]

I bet you that county sales and property taxes helped pay for that city fire department.