Part Failure, American Classic Commander

[A.J. Holst]

On Sunday, I put 200 rounds through it, Rem 230gr MC and Win 230gr JHP

300 rounds total through it.

Got home, proceeded to strip and clean

Upon removing the barrel bushing, an "extra" part fell out.

The key on the barrel bushing obviously broke.

Closer inspection revealed some crystallizing of the metal.

Took it to Gander Mtn (warranty center) Red took one look and said "cheap part, that's one way they keep cost down."

Good news, covered under wtty, so no cost and as an added bonus, he will install a Colt bushing (if it fits) in lieu of another MIM Metro Arms bushing.

For you AC owners, you MAY want to consider changing this part out.

[willis68]

That sucks man but This is a perfect example of getting what you pay for with a 1911, I hope that you have no further issues

Edited September 28, 2010 by willis68

[kesava]

What a shame. I really want one of these. I don't think that this will deter me from buying it. Is this a common issue? I haven't heard of it much.

[BJB]

That sucks man but This is a perfect example of getting what you pay for with a 1911, I hope that you have no further issues

something like that can happen with any Firearm regardless of the price you pay

[willis68]

something like that can happen with any Firearm regardless of the price you pay

I did not say that it couldn't, but with cheaply made (there are good ones)metal injected molded parts it is much much more likely

[Dolomite_supafly]

Springfield uses MIM parts, Colt uses MIM parts, Wilson uses MIM parts, S&W uses MIM parts and as a matter of fact almost every gun maker uses MIM to some degree.

As a matter of fact the Springfield frames and slides are no longer made in the US. Want to check, take off the grips and it will be stamped with Imbel a Brazillian company. Not saying it is bad but just that it is made outside of the US.

I didn't realize Gander was the warranty center for these pistols. I doubt I would ever use it because I do all my own work on them. In seeing your problems I am going to go ahead and buy a bushing to prevent any problem. I had already replaced all the MIM parts inside. I will be replacing the rest as time and money permits.

Dolomite

[willis68]

Springfield uses MIM parts, Colt uses MIM parts, Wilson uses MIM parts, S&W uses MIM parts and as a matter of fact almost every gun maker uses MIM to some degree.

As a matter of fact the Springfield frames and slides are no longer made in the US. Want to check, take off the grips and it will be stamped with Imbel a Brazillian company. Not saying it is bad but just that it is made outside of the US.

I didn't realize Gander was the warranty center for these pistols. I doubt I would ever use it because I do all my own work on them. In seeing your problems I am going to go ahead and buy a bushing to prevent any problem. I had already replaced all the MIM parts inside. I will be replacing the rest as time and money permits.

Dolomite

As I said, some MIM parts are better than others, using cheaply made parts is how some of these manufacturers keep prices down Wilson stopped using them several years ago by the way, but the Springfield Custom shop still puts 3 MIM parts in their PC9111, Pro Model those MIM parts have stood the test of time and are damn good I will not change them out when I get my Pro.

[Smith]

That sucks man but This is a perfect example of getting what you pay for with a 1911, I hope that you have no further issues

No offense Willis but I hate when folks spew that out. It's like when ugly women say it's only personality that matter. Overpaying guarantees nothing, just ask a lot of Kimber owners.

[willis68]

No offense Willis but I hate when folks spew that out. It's like when ugly women say it's only personality that matter. Overpaying guarantees nothing, just ask a lot of Kimber owners.

Sad but true in the case of Kimber

Edited September 30, 2010 by willis68

[Warbird]

The downside to MIM parts is that they are more susceptible to failure than forged parts. They are also more likely to fail if altered at all, such as tuned or polished. At times the manufacturing process will allow for gaps or air pockets to develop in their manufacture. The upside to them is that they are cheaper to make and thus make the gun cheaper. Nearly always an MIM part which is bad will quickly break, under warranty.

An MIM part which is good is a pretty good part and there are plenty of guns with 20,000+ rounds run through them and no probs.

I prefer a firearm with all forged parts, but you pay for that. In reality many pistols use MIM parts and have for a long time, but we really only seem to debate the issue as relates to 1911's. Forged, stamped and MIM parts all have their pros and cons.

[kesava]

The downside to MIM parts is that they are more susceptible to failure than forged parts. They are also more likely to fail if altered at all, such as tuned or polished. At times the manufacturing process will allow for gaps or air pockets to develop in their manufacture. The upside to them is that they are cheaper to make and thus make the gun cheaper. Nearly always an MIM part which is bad will quickly break, under warranty.

An MIM part which is good is a pretty good part and there are plenty of guns with 20,000+ rounds run through them and no probs.

I prefer a firearm with all forged parts, but you pay for that. In reality many pistols use MIM parts and have for a long time, but we really only seem to debate the issue as relates to 1911's. Forged, stamped and MIM parts all have their pros and cons.

What he said:up:

[A.J. Holst]

Even with the failure, I am not turned off by the AC brand and would still recommend folks consider one during their 1911 search.

After talking with DS when he did a little tweaking to mine, I was planning on saving, then spending a few bucks over the next few months for some new non-MIM or high quality MIM internals.

I figure I will spend another $75 - $100 on the internals which will put me with with less than $600 in the gun. I will end up with a pretty nice and reliable 1911 with all the external bells and whistles - knock-off Novak sights, extended grip safety, rounded (bobbed / combat?) hammer, skeletonized trigger with travel adjustment.

Kesava --- My budget was $500.00 or less.

I wanted new since it would be my first 1911 and had decided on a Commander-sized model.

Did as much research as possible on the RIA and AC.

I didn't come across any negative reports on either brand.

I went with the AC over the RIA due to:

The AC I bought with all the bells and whistles was only slightly more expensive than a GI (mil-spec?) RIA and there were NO RIA Commanders of any trim level available at the Knox gun show when I was ready to buy.

Had I purchased a RIA, I would have spent alot more just upgrading the sights.

[JC57]

In addition to Gander Mountain, there a number of other authorized warranty centers for the American Classic brand, listed on their web site: Warranty and Service Centers

They also have links under the main link for each pistol for replacement parts, in case of needing to purchase a part rather than have it repaired under warranty.

It looks like Import Sports, the importer of the American Classics, is either a sister company or another name for Eagle Imports, which is the company that imports Bersa firearms from Argentina. Eagle Imports appears to be very easy to deal with and is concerned with customer satisfaction for their Bersa line, so you might want to e-mail Import Sports or phone them if you need help getting your pistol repaired. Assuming it's the same folks I bet their customer support would be equally good.

Though it sounds like Gander Mountain has you covered.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I did a lot of research before buying. From everything I was reading about the best parts of the gun are the frame and slide. Both are forged 4140 and fit together very nicely. Everything else can be replaced as the need or want arises to make the gun "yours". With a decent slide and frame as well as being a low budget gun this allows users to spend a little and get a lot. I can honestly say that out of the box these are the best sub $500 1911's and I would even say probably the best sub $750 guns. Put another $200 into them and they are comparable to most $1K guns.

I have about $70 worth of dependability parts in mine and I couldn't be happier. By doing this it has rewarded me with a nice 3.5 pound trigger. It does have a little take up but I want it that way for a carry gun. I could file the foot on the beavertail and bend the pretravel tabs on the new trigger and have a gun with zero take up and near zero overtravel but as a carry gun I don't feel comfortable doing that. I would rather have a little overtravel than a gun that fails if it gets a littel crud in it.

Dolomite

[A.J. Holst]

The repair ticket by GM is "billed to Bersa Warranty" so there is some connection between Metro in the Philippines, Bersa in Argentina and Import Sports / Eagle in New Jersey.

Almost seems like a "Lord of War" gun-running operation...

Eagle / Import is definitely in the loop, they responded to my email with a list of wtty centers, GM was the closest.

I probably could have gotten them to send me a replacement part without having to drop off my gun, but I am glad I went to GM since Red is going to try to install a Colt forged bushing.

[gregintenn]

Throw another bushing in it and enjoy it. Odds are it'll never happen again. I have a Colt 70 series Gold Cup. They have all matters of bushing problems, but I ain't getting rid if it.

[A.J. Holst]

I forgot to mention I am going to push the warranty envelope while it is in for service.

DS tweaked the sear and I have had NO repeats of the hammer traveling to half-cock, but still having it inspected; replace under wtty if out of tolerance

It failed to return to battery 3x out of 300 rounds, I am having the slide/frame/spring checked and repaired / replaced under wtty if out of tolerance

One failure for the hammer to release when trigger was pulled, having grip safety / trigger / related parts inspected; repair / replace under wtty if out of tolerance

[daddyo]

something like that can happen with any Firearm regardless of the price you pay

It's never happened with any of mine...

[LngRngShtr]

Had it happen to me on a Gold Cup that series 70 finger bushing cracked and locked up hard,..it happened with those finger bushings,..

had a local 'smith fit up a Kart NM bushing and problems went away,... still shooting strong after 20 years...

John

And then there was the Officers Model Series 80 firing pin safety lever,.. but that is another story and that gun is gone...

2 Colts out of the 5 I own or have owned,.. so enough about " cheap MIM parts..." no matter the "quality" your still playing the odds with a piece of machinery made by a human running a machine...

Edited October 2, 2010 by LngRngShtr

[willis68]

Kart makes some the best Bushings and Barrels in the world, no wonder you have seen no more Problems:)

I have yet to have any problems or part failures on any of the nicer 1911's that I have ever owned but they are all made of forged parts as well

[Dolomite_supafly]

Had my hammer follow the slide today. Mine did it because I was chasing as light of trigger as I could get. I have replaced all the internals with quality parts but I guess 3 1/4 pounds is just too light. Strengthened the sear spring back up to a little over 4 pounds and all is well again.

I started working up handloads but my chronograph became inconsistent in the bright sun of such a beautiful day.

Dolomite

[willis68]

My carry gun was set to 3.0 pounds from the factory, never had a single issue

[Dolomite_supafly]

Yeah but mine is still a work in progress and no doubt mine didn't cost as much as your carry gun. Even before I touched or replaced anything my gun had a 5 1/2 pound trigger, definitely better than most guns in the "budget" category. The hammer is the factory MIM hammer and even though it is "good enough" I am sure it isn't exactly the greatest. I don't want to file on a MIM part knowing it will be getting replaced soon anyways. A new hammer is on my short list and then I will match the sear and hammer up a bit better. As it stands right now it works well enough for me. And other than me tinkering, it has been 100% reliable with everything I have feed it. I am probably over 300 rounds so far with a 500 round box of heads to reload, I just need to get to feeling better.

I decided to check the new weight and got 4 pounds 6 ounces and for a carry gun that is fine for me. It was about that light before but decided to try to tweak the 4 finger sear spring and just went too light, nothing against the gun. I also removed a lot of the takeup of a new trigger while I was at it. Now it is near zero take up and near zero overtravel as a matter of fact from start to finish it is .046" or roughly 3/64th of an inch. Reset is only .023" or less than 1/32nd.

Dolomite

[willis68]

Yeah but mine is still a work in progress and no doubt mine didn't cost as much as your carry gun. Even before I touched or replaced anything my gun had a 5 1/2 pound trigger, definitely better than most guns in the "budget" category. The hammer is the factory MIM hammer and even though it is "good enough" I am sure it isn't exactly the greatest. I don't want to file on a MIM part knowing it will be getting replaced soon anyways. A new hammer is on my short list and then I will match the sear and hammer up a bit better. As it stands right now it works well enough for me. And other than me tinkering, it has been 100% reliable with everything I have feed it. I am probably over 300 rounds so far with a 500 round box of heads to reload, I just need to get to feeling better.

I decided to check the new weight and got 4 pounds 6 ounces and for a carry gun that is fine for me. It was about that light before but decided to try to tweak the 4 finger sear spring and just went too light, nothing against the gun. I also removed a lot of the takeup of a new trigger while I was at it. Now it is near zero take up and near zero overtravel as a matter of fact from start to finish it is .046" or roughly 3/64th of an inch. Reset is only .023" or less than 1/32nd.

Dolomite

Sounds like when you are finished that will be one hell of a 1911!

[Dolomite_supafly]

Hope so, the only reason why I would go this far is because it is a very solid gun. I have said it before and I will say it over and over again. Out of the box hese are way better than any of the other budget guns, including those that are in the <$800 budget gun category. This particular AC has a frame to slide fit that is magnitudes better than my Colt 1991A1 and the OP's commander version of the AC is also a very tight gun.

I realize I will never get my money back but I planned on shooting this one a lot without feeling guilty. If it gets dinged up I am not going to get upset.

Dolomite