Web site shows restaurants, bars where guns are, aren't allowed in TN

[Fallguy]

Since when have our legislators been restricted by the state constitution? At least 39-17-1359 is somewhere in the ball park, how exactly in TICS constitutional? What does purchasing a firearm have to do with wearing it?

I could be wrong, but I thought TICS was in response to Federal law, not TN law.

Right or wrong though despite the words "shall not be infringed" SCOTUS has said that "reasonable restrictions" can be applied to the purchase and possession of firearms. I can't point to a specific case, but I'm sure there has been one that requiring background checks before purchase is "reasonable"

But on TN law I do agree that IMO most of the laws that restrict carry don't seem to have anything to do with "a view to prevent crime" as laid out in Article 1, Sec 26 of the TN constitution.

[Oh Shoot]

I could be wrong, but I thought TICS was in response to Federal law, not TN law.

...

It is. It's just that instead of FFLs accessing the federal data base directly, our legislature has put the state of TN in between.

Hence the $10 TN TAX of "TICS" to access the FEDERAL FREE "NICS".

- OS

[JayC]

As OhShoot already pointed out... it is kinda... instead of allowing FFL's to use the free federal NICS the TN legislature passed a law making TICS which requires us to get approval from the state and pay a $10 tax for that privilege.

How exactly is that not the TN Legislature regulating the purchase of a firearm? When the TN state constitution clearly indicates they may only regular the wearing of firearms and nothing else. Our state constitution gives us greater protections (in theory) when involving firearms by limiting what the state can do further.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but we're in 100% agreement, both republicans and democrats in the current legislature are happy to trample around on a lot of our rights, without bothering to read either the state of federal constitutions and stick to them.

I could be wrong, but I thought TICS was in response to Federal law, not TN law.

Right or wrong though despite the words "shall not be infringed" SCOTUS has said that "reasonable restrictions" can be applied to the purchase and possession of firearms. I can't point to a specific case, but I'm sure there has been one that requiring background checks before purchase is "reasonable"

But on TN law I do agree that IMO most of the laws that restrict carry don't seem to have anything to do with "a view to prevent crime" as laid out in Article 1, Sec 26 of the TN constitution.

[daddyo]

Wish I was a restaurant owner and got paid a visit from these clowns.

"You want me to post a sign to keep guns out? You mean a gun like THIS ONE?"

[monkeylizard]

I knew this gunfreedining website was full of crap. Went to this place tonight:

CAESAR'S BISTRO

Stance on Guns: No Guns Allowed

As I hadn't seen a sign posted there lately. NO SIGN, so we went in. <snip>

+1 on don't trust the site, at least not fully. There's a place in Bellevue called Tee's that my wife and I go that's listed as Anti on the site. It even has a quote from the owner. I checked for stickers/signs yesterday, and there weren't any. I ate at the place next door (free plug for Sam's Gyros in Bellevue....yummy!) until I can talk with the owner and verify her stance on it (and respectfully tell her why I'll never come back if it's true). I'd hate to lose that as a dining option. We don't have many good choices in Bellevue.

On a plus side, the site has given me another reason to go try Tokyo Japanese. Status: Guns Allowed. Now to check the Health Score.....

P.S. Is that the Caesar's on White Bridge in Nashville?

[Hershmeister]

The solution to this website and effort is not simply take your money elsewhere. This is a classic pressure effort to change behaviors. Their marketing message is simple:

1) provide a survery demonstrating that the "majority of people" don't approve of guns+alcohol in a restaurant

2) Ask the owner is he/she wished to support the majority?

3) Provide no-gun sticker and publish on website

4) repeat and then leverage the ever growing number of posted places as further evidence to #1, thus adding momentum to your story

The reality is this isn't a 2nd amendment issue as much as we'd all like ot think it is. the average store owner smply wants to make money and drive the fewest number of customers away through bad publicity. if the argument is 5% of TN residence have permits vs 69% don't approve of guns in a restaurant, which side do you think the owner will fall on when faced with making a decision in front of a website owner/supporter?

Fear is a fantastic motivator, and this group is using it well. The proper countermeasure to their story is to have the restaurant owner consider his/her legal implications of choosing to NOT post should a shooting occur in their business, and HCP holders were prohibited by that owner from carrying and suffered injury/death. The Lubys case is a real world example of this. They also must be informed that HCPs are prohibited by law from drinking AT ALL while carrying a firearm. This is convenietnly not mentioned in the website or in the survey. Thus you can use logos and pathos to win the argument - but its a long fight

[Guest Tiny G]

There is a great dining web site that is used by a lot of people to find new places to eat.

Nashville Restaurants | Urbanspoon

You can vote "I like it" or "I don't like it" for any restaurant.

I would suggest that people vote. I don't believe any comments on the site about 2nd amendment rights are necessary. Just simple votes that reflect how you feel about each place.

As each restaurant only has a couple of hundred votes for each one . . a few hundred more wouldn't hurt.

[Guest HexHead]

gunfreedining.org is touting on their website that Noshville Deli has posted all three of their locations in Nashville. I just let Noshville know what I think about that. Y'all are invited to do the same at Noshville Authentic New York Delicatessen :: Nashville, TN

[Guest HexHead]

Follow up emails with Noshville Deli. He's referring to the old ABC sign they still have to post inside....

On Oct 4, 2010, at 2:19 PM, "Tom Loventhal" <tom@loventhal.net> wrote:

Dear Mr. Hexhead

I have attached to this email a sign that has been posted in all restaurants in the state of Tennessee for the past 30 years.* As you may or may not know, the Alcoholic Beverage Commission (ABC) has always required us to post this sign in order to receive a liquor license.

With the new law, we must post one way or the other.* In a loose sense of the word, establishments that serve alcohol are “between a rock and a hard place.â€* Our hands are tied because of public perception.

While I respect an individual’s freedom to bear arms, the new law is no different than the old law in regards to the ABC’s position on this.* I wish the politicians had just left well enough alone.*

*

We would hope that you would reconsider your being a Noshville customer.*

*

Tom

*

Tom Loventhal

Noshville Delicatessen - Managing General Partner

My response to him.....

Dear Mr Loventhal,

Thank you for your response. *Under the new law, having a Handgun Carry Permit exempts HCP holders from the law that sign below addresses. That sign now only applies to people carrying illegally without a permit. The new law includes definitions for what constitutes a proper posting if you wish to exclude licensed, legal HCP holders from carrying into your establishment for a corned beef sandwich and a Dr Brown's. We are not allowed to drink any alcohol while carrying.*

It's unfortunate that activists like the gunfreedinigtennessee.org website is pushing this issue trying to make to make it a dilemma for restauranteurs, and trying to force them to post using mis-information and harassment. Those of us that have HCP permits have gone to a lot of trouble and cost *to obtain them. A course in applying the laws, qualifying at the range, fingerprinting and background checks by both the FBI and the TBI. We have been vetted as law abiding citizens, and aren't going to cause you any problems in your establishments.

Probably 98% of us carry concealed, so as not to draw any unwanted attention to ourselves. Like I said in my previous message to you, in reality, you're unlikely to lose any business by not posting.. But you will most assuredly lose the business of the roughly 300,000 HCP holders and their families.*

Speaking for myself, I moved here 20 years ago from. L.A., and started frequenting your mid-town location as soon as it opened. It really reminded me of Jerry's Deli in Studio City. I sure hope you change your minds about cooperating with that website, and don't post, so I can continue to enjoy those brisket sandwiches I like so much.

Thanks,*

Hexhead

* * * **

I don't know what the deal is with all the asterisks?

[Fallguy]

I know I've said this before but....

First the "new law" also removed the requirment for the old ABC signs....so those are no longer required. However if a place has still left them up and those are the only ones they have, they never did and still don't prohibit carry.

[DaveTN]

I hate thugs. This issue is full of bullies and thug wannabe’s on both sides; with the business owners in the middle. Your state legislators did this not the business owners. Making idle threats against business owners won’t help anything. The ones that have posted have already called your bluff and I doubt they miss your business.

I know this isn’t a popular stand on this forum; but blame the people that caused this. If these business owners don’t understand the new laws why don’t you go meet with them instead of whining continually about it here.

[Hershmeister]

what does this sign look like - can you post a copy or provide a link ?

[Guest HexHead]

The ones that have posted have already called your bluff and I doubt they miss your business.

If that was true, he wouldn't have bothered to respond to my comment on their website.

[Guest HexHead]

I know I've said this before but....

First the "new law" also removed the requirment for the old ABC signs....so those are no longer required. However if a place has still left them up and those are the only ones they have, they never did and still don't prohibit carry.

I think it's still required by the ABC as it still applies to non-HCP holders. Having an HCP is an exemption to that sign.

[Guest HexHead]

what does this sign look like - can you post a copy or provide a link ?

[Guest HexHead]

Here's a link to the "brochure" gunfreediningtennessee.org gives to the restaurant owners.

http://www.gunfreediningtennessee.org/sites/default/files/Hand%20Out%20to%20Give%20Restaurants.8.15.10.pdf

[Fallguy]

I think it's still required by the ABC as it still applies to non-HCP holders. Having an HCP is an exemption to that sign.

39-17-1307 applies to non-HCP holders... 39-17-1305 does not exist anymore which is what those signs refereed to. There is no difference for "illegal carry" in a place that serves alcohol than there is any other place for a non-HCP holder.

If the ABC is still requiring those signs, there is no law that backs them up.

SB3012/Public Chapter 1009 removed 57-3-204 and 57-4-203 from the TCA.

AGAIN that sign never prohibited carry...only warned of the consequences of violating 39-17-1305....and AGAIN there is no 39-17-1305 any more.

[Guest tngw1500se]

Their website says this:

<style="font-style: italic;="">"Disclaimer </style="font-style:>We identify which restaurants post no-gun signs, but cannot verify that customers follow the law."

Proves the point that the signs and the website are useless. Criminals don't give a rats ass about the signs. What a waste of time!

[Louisb]

Is it too difficult to make it into a simple search and report?