FAST Drill

[Mike]

pistol-training.com » F.A.S.T. (Fundamentals, Accuracy, & Speed Test)

What are your times?

I can do 5.7-6.1 seconds pretty consistently

I scored this one yesterday. Unfortunately it's a fluke, I'm not consistent at that speed. I did this run then the next one I juggled the magazine for a second before I got it into the pistol.

Overall and splits

Target

Mike

[robbiev]

5.7 seconds...big deal, I'll bet I can do it in 20.

I'm going to try this this week and see what I can do. It looks like a pretty good drill.

[Guest CK1]

I practice this drill all the time, think it's just a good drill for getting a lot of important things worked into muscle memory. I usually average just below or just above 5 seconds with concealment, around a 1/2 second faster without (now and again I've seen some times on the timer before that were fast enough where I've wanted to call BS on my own self though!). There's a link to a 4.82 run in my signature, but I've been on a diet since (seriously) and dropping some lbs so I'm hoping it'll help my shooting (as well as my overall health of course) and sometime this year I'm going to try and make one of Todd's classes and get that coin.

Great to see another TGOer working on stuff like this btw... Nice job, I'm sure after some reps you'll be below 5 in no time, then we'll only need to shave off another 1.5 or so to be near Sevigny

Edited September 13, 2010 by CK1

[Mike]

If I can get the reload under 2 seconds and the draw at 1 second I'll be pretty happy.

[Guest CK1]

If I can get the reload under 2 seconds and the draw at 1 second I'll be pretty happy.

From the looks of that timer your draw is already pretty fast (faster than me anyway), your reload could get faster yeah, but your splits on the 4 to the body is where you'll gain a bunch, really fast guys are in the teens on those...

Also, that target you are using looks a little small.

Edited September 14, 2010 by CK1

[Mike]

It's a little smaller than Todd's target. I didn't print any off before I went out so I ended up using some of these.

Yeah, the splits are a little long. I still have a lot of work to do.

[mav]

Thanks for posting the link. This is probably a really stupid question, but here it goes anyway. Is there anyway to time yourself on drills such as these without the use of an additional person timing you?

[Mike]

Yes, I use a Pact Club Timer 3. It sounds an audible beep and records your shot times from there.

PACT Club Shot Timer 3 - MidwayUSA

[Guest CK1]

Thanks for posting the link. This is probably a really stupid question, but here it goes anyway. Is there anyway to time yourself on drills such as these without the use of an additional person timing you?

Use a shot timer, but these days I just use my iPhone mostly, there's a free shot timer app by Surfire that works just about as good as the "real" thing.

[bigwakes]

Use a shot timer, but these days I just use my iPhone mostly, there's a free shot timer app by Surfire that works just about as good as the "real" thing.

+1 on the iphone app. Works great and impresses all your friends.....with the app not the skill.

[TGO David]

Back in 2008 when I had a lot of free time to practice dry in the house and was shooting a lot at the range, I was just under 5 seconds on FAST from concealment. I doubt I could do 6 seconds now. You've inspired me to start practicing again.

[deerslayer]

I tried this the other day and the best I could manage was a 4.7-4.8 with a 9mm Trojan. I bet I could beat that if I started shooting my G34 again, since my glock reloads are better than my 1911 reloads.

Here's the man showing how it's really done:

YouTube - Dave Sevigny F.A.S.T. Drill Record, 3.56 seconds

[Guest CK1]

I tried this the other day and the best I could manage was a 4.7-4.8 with a 9mm Trojan. I bet I could beat that if I started shooting my G34 again, since my glock reloads are better than my 1911 reloads.

Here's the man showing how it's really done:

YouTube - Dave Sevigny F.A.S.T. Drill Record, 3.56 seconds

What the 1911 giveth in trigger-sweetness, it taketh away in reloads.

Here's a 4.82 run a few months back with a G17 and 55lbs heavier: pistol-training.com F.A.S.T Drill 4.82secs Clean video by ckoneshootsguns - Photobucket

Between skipping the carbs, hitting the gym everyday, closing a Captains of Crush #1 with my support-hand (and keeping it nearby most of the time), and then switching platforms to shooting a CZ Shadow... happy to report I'm at or around 4.5sec consistently shooting DA/SA, faster out of cocked n' locked SAO... I can feel it and my recent IDPA scores are starting to show it, practicing this drill has helped my shooting a boatload.

Deerslayer, if I decide to hit some sanctioned matches this year I'd appreciate it if you'd do a brother a favor and go pick on the guys in CDP, and please, whatever you do, do not buy a Shadow.

Edited November 25, 2010 by CK1

[deerslayer]

Funny you mention CDP--I have an S&W CDP gun in the works and I've just started reloading .45. I've always wanted a Shadow, though.

[cslafrain]

The FAST is one of my favs as well. I usually take an IDPA target and staple an index card to the head and to the body to try to shrink my area down. Anything outside the card doesnt count. That one and dryfire, dryfire, dryfire, and more dryfire, with just a hint more of dryfire. Since I discovered the M&P, my times and accuracy have improved dramatically. It just feels natural.

Haven't seen you in a while Tad. You need to come to Dickson for our next match on December 4th. It will be 7 stages. I always enjoy watching you shoot. Happy Thanksgiving ALL!

[Guest CK1]

Funny you mention CDP--I have an S&W CDP gun in the works and I've just started reloading .45. I've always wanted a Shadow, though.

That's it right there: reloading. I've got young kids running around and our home is reloading-space challenged, I actually really like shooting .45's but just gets too expensive so I mostly stick to the 9. I'll be in with both feet if/when we buy a new place (which will be within a year or two). I like the "push" of the .45's.

All kidding aside if you like Glocks and you like your Trojan 9, the Shadow is basically a half-way in-between hybrid, the SA trigger is every bit as good as a tuned 1911 (IMO the reset is actually better as it's maybe 1-2mm longer but has A LOT more "snap", closer to the Glock-reset, just shorter), but at the same time it's boringly reliable and not at all ammo-finicky, reloads happen as fast if not faster than with the Glock. If you try one you'll probably buy one.

The drawback with them is making weight to be legal as for some screwy reason IDPA HQ has some interesting opinions/views on them that don't really make a whole lot of sense so you have to make a few changes to make weight for SSP (39oz). I was this close to going the Trojan 9 route myself but a the last second took the chance on the CZ and I'm glad I did, 9mm 1911's are nice but I've already got enough going on in my life right now where I don't know if I can take on the drama of getting them to run consistently playing with mags, springs, ejectors, extractors, etc.

There's actually a new one that just came out last week called the "CZ-75 Shadow" that has a shorter dust-cover and is ground-up built to be IDPA-legal for ESP without the nonsense of having to change a stock gun to somehow be more "stock", that's the one to get now (they come from CZ-Customs but are considered "factory" guns, $100 more than a base Shadow but the comp hammer and better trigger are well worth it http://czcustom.com/cz75shadowsadablk.aspx).

I'm not working for CZ or anything, but I'm pretty much solidly an "it's the indian, not the arrow" type of guy, and still the fact is I can just shoot better with less effort with the CZ, what would be a -3 with the Glock is a 0 with the CZ.

To echo Chandler, come out to Dickson sometime and shoot with us one of these weekends and I'll let you put as many rounds as you want through mine. Chandler like Greg before him is doing a great job giving us some interesting COF's.

Oh, and Happy Turkey-Day guys!

Edited November 25, 2010 by CK1

[deerslayer]

I used to make fun of all the 1911 guys talking about their mag springs or whatever they had to tweak next. Now, I've picked up four 1911s since April. How times change. A Springfield EMP is now my EDC. My Trojan has run 100% flawlessly WHEN IT FIRES. I have a light primer strike gremlin that usually shows it ugly head when I have just activated a drop turner in the middle of a sanctioned match. When I get my CDP gun sorted out, the Trojan is going back to STI. It's either a link issue or the firing pin hole in the breechface is off-center. The firing pin strikes primers at 12 o'clock. It may end up getting hard-chromed as well (it's ~6 months old and looks like Sgt. York carried it. A friend warned me about STI bluing). All 1911-whisperers who dry fire my Trojan cringe--they say "Why do you want your 1911 trigger to feel like a Glock?" I say something like, "because I shot Glocks for 3 years and don't want a DQ." Seriously, I'm safe, but a truly "tuned" 1911 trigger is currently just too much for me. I don't know much about CZs--they are DA/SA, but can be cocked and locked? Does the safety also function as a decocker? I'd like to tinker with one someday.

My 9mm 1911 reloads suffer not because I have trouble inserting the skinny mag, but because I insert mags with 450 ft-lbs of energy (Glock style) and the slide drops halfway. The bullet plugs into the feedramp and I have to slingshot the slide. If I GENTLY insert the mag, the slide stays put and I hit the slide release. .45 1911s do not have this problem, probably because they don't use 12 lb. recoil springs. I've been shooting the Trojan for ~5 months and still struggle with this issue. It's beginning to really piss me off.

So help me, I'm coming to Dickson some day. Just not sure when.

-Tad

aka "A. C."

apologies to OP for serious thread drift!

[cslafrain]

Go to an extra power spring on your mag release and put a detent in your slide stop. That will fix her. Also check for clearance issues with the ejector. Some are a little oversize and they tend to slow the slide down on the back of the cycle. I also make sure I use a variable power recoil spring that it has a little more power at the end of the stroke. You make also want to try to increase your load length a little to max out the mag depth. I have been working on 1911s for 15 years. They are a particular animal. The 9mm is tempermental in it but once I got the bugs out of my eagle it is smokin. I just cant wait to get it back from Bobby at Freedom to be refinished. Cobalt on the lower with atranite on the upper. It should be sweet. It looked like it served 4 tours in WWII when I sent it out. Look forward to seeing you in Dickson

[Guest CK1]

Tad, it's good to hear you've had some luck since I'm kinda in the same boat, I remember a few threads going back and forth where you and I were on the "I see 1911's F-up all the time" side of things but I'll probably still end up with a 9mm 1911 one of these days (I actually ordered a Spartan 9 then cancelled it, twice).

The light-strike issue you're describing is a new one to me, who'd think you'd be dealing with that... like you mentioned I'm more weary of mag problems as they seem to be fairly ubiquitous (if we could figure out how to make some bombproof 9mm 1911 mags we could get rich in a hurry). The 1911 trigger and short-as-hell-reset is really hard to resist, it's just that if I told you I knew 2 other guys running them without issues I'd be lying.

The CZ is DA/SA-with a safety, no decocker. You lower the hammer for a DA first pull the old-fashioned way, CAREFULLY! Most run them cocked n' locked while having the DA as second-strike insurance, the safety works when the hammer is back only, and you ride your thumb on top of it just like a 1911. Because of the DA-mode there's some take-up before you break 'em in SA, DA is really smooth and I'd say running against DAO's in SSP you have a slight advantage even with the first DA pull since the rest of them in SA are so nice.

You can, and I do, run them in both SSP and ESP (cocked n' locked), on days where we do second-gun I run the exact same rig both runs (minus the first pull) which makes for good practice.

Their trigger's with the competition hammer installed is really nice, no creep, super-crisp/glass-rod, just once-overed my internals and did a quickie polish-job on the bow and sear and in SA guessing mine breaks at 3lbs or less with a 13lb hammer-spring (as low as anyone goes, if it's too light you can go to a heavier hammer-spring but it has far more effect on DA then the SA). It's light, but I'm digging it, I could probably go lighter but like you I'm used to Glocks so it's already lighter than I'm used to as is, but put it this way, I can pull sloppy as s**t and I still won't print left like you would with a Glock. The reset is almost as short as a 1911, but has a bunch more snap.

As an aside, if you ever get to feel a SAO CZ with the adjustable flat-trigger installed you'll forget all about 1911 triggers, as good as it gets IMO, 3mm or less travel total, no real amount of take-up or pre-travel, no over-travel, 1mm reset, scary good.

The big surprise with the SP/Shadow guns in my eyes is I never knew how great the ergos are or how thin you can make them, their trigger-guards are under-cut fairly dramaticlly and your hand really gets under the beavertail, combined with their low bore-axis they feel and point excellent (hard to believe, but better than a 1911 IMO), aftermarket grips can take off about 1/2" if you want, I'm using some VZ G10 one's and the gun is as thin or thinner than a 1911 with slim grips, I'm on the cusp of it being too thin but it feels better than any handgun I've ever picked up and my support-hand has a freaking death-grip and I like it, usually when I hand it to others the first thing they say is "wow, this feels nice...".

The best thing about them really is that there are lots of competion guys who beat the p*ss out of them regularly out there, so they kind of are a good fit for someone who likes or is used to how Glocks run.

They seem to be sort of rare in the IDPA scene but are out there, though if you wanted to find guys shooting them they're really popular in IPSC/USPSA production.

Edited November 26, 2010 by CK1

[deerslayer]

Chandler,

Thanks for the tip--I think I remember you mentioning the detent in the slide release a few months ago. How do I go about putting one there? How deep/wide, etc? What specific variable power recoil spring do you like? I'm currently loading to about 1.155" w/ 147s.

CK1,

I've been running Wilson ETMs and they feed fine. Tripps don't lock the slide open, but do run. My only other issue with 1911s is getting a correct grip--when I put my thumb on top of the safety, it creates a slight gap between my hand and the grip safety. I'm going to experiment with some tape to re-shape the grip a little.

[Guest CK1]

Think I'm going to just hold out until I come across a really good package deal with mags and stuff on a 9mm 1911 that's already had most if it's bugged worked out by it's previous owner (like on benos or something, they pop up from time to time but are snapped up in minutes it seems). That way I'll increase the likelihood of getting one that runs or at least hopefully not take the brunt of the $$$ to get it to.

The only real issues I have with the CZ is how it fits in with IDPA HQ's rules, mine barely makes weight by the skin of it's teeth and I'd be pissed if I got DQ'd for being .01oz over if I was unfortunate enough to run into some rule-nazi at a sanctioned match after doing the drive and the entry fees (mine weighs 38.9oz or 39oz on the nose depending on the weather, even with the .02 +/- variance allowed, it could happen). Another thing is the FPB (which really only effects the length-to-reset), to be exact my gun is an SP-01 with all the CZCustom upgrades to bring up to the same exact Shadow spec, by-the-book not technically a Shadow which up until recently was legal, even with the FPB installed it's reset is only a little longer than a Glock's (about as long as an M&P's), but without it in there it's a thing of beauty, and sucks that do to the rule change unless I sell it and spend another $400 or so to get the honest-to-goodness Shadow (which will shoot and handle exactly the same, no better, but was born with no FPB but otherwise the exact same thing I already have) I've got to keep it intact or risk shooting for fun. I'm going to have to buy a new one if I choose to stick with it, and that means 3000rds less in practice ammo which kind of has me bummed.

To kind a bring the discussion back to the topic, the FAST drill is kind of how I test to see if I'm BSing myself on whether one gun has me going faster or not, and thus far until getting the CZ nothing's beat a G17 in my hands, for whatever reason I just can shoot the CZ better with less effort. Thing is, a lot of my improvement is just coming from practice and the G17 is far less of a headache if I choose to hit any major matches in the future. Guess part of me just thinks it's cooler to do well with a lowly old Glock and wondering if the CZ is too fancy and getting me too close to being more gamer than practical which I'm not really into, I don't shoot to do good in IDPA, I shoot IDPA to shoot good...

Until a little over 2 years ago I'd never even held a real handgun, let alone shot one, I joined TGO a couple months before I got my first pistol to get advice and pick up info and have had just about every damn one since, always ending up back with Glocks (grew up in the northeast and shot .22s as a kid but that's it), and while I'm talking this stuff about which is better it's starting to make me wonder if I'm getting off-track and not focusing on the right stuff... Hmmm, talking 1911's, CZ's, sweet-triggers, etc. might be convincing me to go back to the Glocks and worry about that stuff later...

- Chip

Edited November 27, 2010 by CK1

[cslafrain]

Tad,

I am using the Wolff variables with an aluminum shock buff from dawson. They were recommended by Bob Londigren from Brazos. The plastic ones wear out to easy but the aluminum acts like a dead blow hammer to cushion the contact you get with lower poundage recoil springs. The nosing down could also be caused from an extractor that is set too tight. An aftec extractor is considered must have equipment on every 1911/2011 I have built. On the detent, Brownells actually makes a long drill bit made to run thru the plunger tube. 1.155 actually seems a little long. Even with my Eagle I only run 1.14, but I always put an upward bend in the last coil of the spring to put some upward pressure on the nose of the follower. Come out and we can throw my slide on yours to see if it helps. It she be back from Freedom any day now.

I was at the range yesterday doing some drills with the M&P and decided to try the fast drill agan. No concealment was 4.18 and with was 4.37. The concealment draw doesn't feel that much slower but the reload does. Looks like I have to work on that. I need to change basepads on the M&P - those long pads just don't feel right. They are my only complaint about the M&P.