Time for a 1911 (45), educate me please

[Guest JHatmaker]

I've had nothing but great experiences with Kimber's customer service. I think Kimber is one of those brands that folks either love or hate, and I'll never understand the latter. Sure, they're not a Nighthawk or Wilson, but they're not trying to be. I think they've found a nice little niche in the market. I've owned 4 Kimbers, and never had a single issue with them. In my opinion they make one of the best 1911's you can get without spending $2000. Money not an issue, I'd take a Nighthawk without hesistation.

All that being said, take a look at all the offerings in your price range. It's all about what feels the most comfortable for you. Granted the 1911 design doesn't have many variances, so they're all going to pretty much feel the same. Test out the triggers, slides etc. Everyone here is going to have different experiences with the same pistol, so as they always say (and I think someone already has in this thread), take our opinions and suggestions with a grain of salt. (Or is it; opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one?)

[JDM175]

Not trying to hijack (the following question can be considered relevant to the current discussion) but for those of you who have or have shot both a Wilson and a Hero custom how do they compare?

[Guest motonut]

Not trying to hijack (the following question can be considered relevant to the current discussion) but for those of you who have or have shot both a Wilson and a Hero custom how do they compare?

Since I'm the OP I can talk to the "hijack" issue and your question is not a hijack, this is just the kind of feedback I was wanting to get.

[Guest motonut]

I have the 5' model, but I am sure you will be very pleased with the 4.25 Commander size variant. I think that the external extractor is an excellent feature to have on a 1911. ( I think that Sig is the only other mfg that makes a 1911 with it.) Nearly every other auto-pistol in the world has an external extractor. I think it contributes to reliability, the external location allows the extractor to be larger and grip more of the cartridge rim.

The swartz type safety (activated off of the grip) works fine. I removed mine however. The little arm in the grip frame that moves to disengage the FP safety had a habit of sticking up when the gun was disassembled for cleaning. I would have to hold it down with a small, thin screwdriver to put the slide back on to the frame. I will probably replace my firing pin with a titanium one at some point. On that note, you may be aware that S&W does offer a 1911 with no swartz safety, the TFP model. I don't know if it comes in the barrel length that you are seeking.

I have owned both Colt and Springfield and they are excellent pistols. However, I like the features that make the S&W unique. Accuracy and quality are equal to or better than the others. If you go with S&W, you won't be disappointed.

Thanks for the input. Yes, all things being equal I will go with a Smith but I do want to fondle as many as I can first to be sure.

Kind of partial to Smiths: 686, 659, M&P 40, M&P15, M&P15-22 but Springfield, Browning, Beretta and Walther are represented too.

[Guest motonut]

Well, you guys were right, I like the 5" models better. Stopped by Guns and Leather today, Daniel was great to work with. Took his time and let me fondle a bunch. I didn't walk out with anything but they have a S&W model I'm interested in coming in next week. I'll stop by to see if it's what I think it's like and most likely make a decision then.

I liked the Colt Government Stainless too but I'm leaning towards the S&W.

[Will Carry]

If you like the Colt, why are you leaning towards the...........never mind. I am certainly not an authority on 1911s. I have shot Kimbers, Springfields and Smith 1911s. They all went bang, if you blindfolded me, I could tell you what was what. I just like Colt because they were the first. I have the Government stainless with a Crimson Trace laser grip. Never jams and I get a free laser light show whenever I drink too much coffee and try to shoot.

[Warbird]

Not trying to hijack (the following question can be considered relevant to the current discussion) but for those of you who have or have shot both a Wilson and a Hero custom how do they compare?

Wilson and Hero will compare well together. The best Wilsons and the finest Hero's are both at the top of the food chain among custom 1911's. Granted the Hero doesn't have the name yet. However, neither did Nighthawk a few short years ago, or a whole host of other custom shops now well known. Most of them you probably still don't know, such as Chuck Rogers or Hilton Yam, etc. They are all in the category of hand fitted, customer chosen bespoke guns, where you decide the details. Models are just a base point in many ways.

Either one or any of these produce a gun that just by racking the slide you can feel the difference between theirs and the 2nd tier of 1911 guns. They are simply a cut above. There is no secret to it. It's expertise and time. Time being hand fitted together and care taken in each step. It isn't just a 1911, it's any bespoke gun or semi bespoke gun. A truly fitted shotgun, double rifle, etc are all in that category of a cut above because of the time and attention to detail. It isn't about quantity, it's about quality.

The truly custom guns made to the specs you care about create a quality can is in general always a cut above. Bespoke clothing always fits better than off the shelf. Some people are willing to pay for these services, some are not. Some will fool themselves into thinking they have something just as good, but at a reduced cost than what some people pay. Cost isn't everything. Some pay a lot for a name when the company really is just riding on a name and not putting out truly excellent pieces. Likewise many custom makers, like Hero make something at a cost less than what many other 'traditional names' charge for their custom guns, still not inexpensive though.

This is all to to say it is about value to the customer. Some people are satisfied knowing they have a great firearm and even though they know it might not be the absolute best, it is pretty dang good. For a lot that is simply good enough. After all, the most basic points are that it runs , that you can hit with it and that it is safe. The other things are for discerning individuals who have a job requiring it, or are competitors or simply demand something more to fulfilling all of their needs, and WANTS.

Here's why I like Hero guns. I know they are well made, they will tell you exactly what you are getting and where their parts come from or you choose some other part you like more in some instances such as sights or triggers, etc. A very important factor for me is if I buy a Wilson and something goes wrong with it I have to find a local person to work on it or I have to spend the time and money sending it back to Wilson. If I have a Hero gun, I know who made the gun, the exact person who made the gun. I know that I can drive 45 minutes and have that person tweak the gun or fix what isn't quite right or replace what needs replacing.

There are numerous great choices. Then there are other who pass themselves off as custom builders making tremendous claims of building their whole guns from scratch and other wild stuff. Don't trust them. If you want a custom get one from a known high class shop or buy from a custom small production builder who is honest with you and tells you up front what you get and where he will get what he needs from.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Warbird

[JDM175]

Wilson and Hero will compare well together. The best Wilsons and the finest Hero's are both at the top of the food chain among custom 1911's. Granted the Hero doesn't have the name yet. However, neither did Nighthawk a few short years ago, or a whole host of other custom shops now well known. Most of them you probably still don't know, such as Chuck Rogers or Hilton Yam, etc. They are all in the category of hand fitted, customer chosen bespoke guns, where you decide the details. Models are just a base point in many ways.

Either one or any of these produce a gun that just by racking the slide you can feel the difference between theirs and the 2nd tier of 1911 guns. They are simply a cut above. There is no secret to it. It's expertise and time. Time being hand fitted together and care taken in each step. It isn't just a 1911, it's any bespoke gun or semi bespoke gun. A truly fitted shotgun, double rifle, etc are all in that category of a cut above because of the time and attention to detail. It isn't about quantity, it's about quality.

The truly custom guns made to the specs you care about create a quality can is in general always a cut above. Bespoke clothing always fits better than off the shelf. Some people are willing to pay for these services, some are not. Some will fool themselves into thinking they have something just as good, but at a reduced cost than what some people pay. Cost isn't everything. Some pay a lot for a name when the company really is just riding on a name and not putting out truly excellent pieces. Likewise many custom makers, like Hero make something at a cost less than what many other 'traditional names' charge for their custom guns, still not inexpensive though.

This is all to to say it is about value to the customer. Some people are satisfied knowing they have a great firearm and even though they know it might not be the absolute best, it is pretty dang good. For a lot that is simply good enough. After all, the most basic points are that it runs , that you can hit with it and that it is safe. The other things are for discerning individuals who have a job requiring it, or are competitors or simply demand something more to fulfilling all of their needs, and WANTS.

Here's why I like Hero guns. I know they are well made, they will tell you exactly what you are getting and where their parts come from or you choose some other part you like more in some instances such as sights or triggers, etc. A very important factor for me is if I buy a Wilson and something goes wrong with it I have to find a local person to work on it or I have to spend the time and money sending it back to Wilson. If I have a Hero gun, I know who made the gun, the exact person who made the gun. I know that I can drive 45 minutes and have that person tweak the gun or fix what isn't quite right or replace what needs replacing.

There are numerous great choices. Then there are other who pass themselves off as custom builders making tremendous claims of building their whole guns from scratch and other wild stuff. Don't trust them. If you want a custom get one from a known high class shop or buy from a custom small production builder who is honest with you and tells you up front what you get and where he will get what he needs from.

I am with you and understand what a hand fitted 1911 is and the pros and to purchasing one are. I also like the fact that Hero is local so if you run into any problems you can take it back but I have also heard that problems with Wilsons are far and few and when they do arise you send it back and they fix it no questions asked. Wilson has a great rep for Customer Service but then so does Hero. While the primer on hand fitted 1911s was very informative I was looking more for a firing line assessment. Specifically I was more looking for a response from someone who has or has had both a Wilson and a Hero and how do they compare with reliability and accuracy. While it is great that guns look nice does anyone here have 5,000+ rounds or so through both or either?

To the OP you can tell by several recent threads that 1911s are highly debated and hotly contested. I personally have two right now. My primary is a Colt 1991 with a few mods. Solid shooter and good intro 1911 for the cost and can later be modified to your fancy. Having said that I am looking to try to step up to something like a Wilson/Ed Brown/Hero etc.

Best adice I can give is find someone who has what you are looking for and shoot it then decide.

[Guest JHatmaker]

Not trying to hijack (the following question can be considered relevant to the current discussion) but for those of you who have or have shot both a Wilson and a Hero custom how do they compare?

I own both, and I compare the Hero1911 to Wilson, Nighthawk and Ed Brown. That's how good they are...really. Not just trying to talk up HG because they're a venfor here and everything. I got to shoot one of the demo's before they started production and was surprised how accurate and close in craftmanship to Ed Brown's 1911's.

I like the fact that is 100% custom made, and that one person puts all of them together, and you can take with him throughout the process for updates or if you need to make a change. They might seem expensive when you first see the price, but add $1000 on top of that, and that's what you'll pay for a Wilson or Nighthawk.

Edited September 11, 2010 by JHatmaker

[JDM175]

I own both, and I compare the Hero1911 to Wilson, Nighthawk and Ed Brown. That's how good they are...really. Not just trying to talk up HG because they're a venfor here and everything. I got to shoot one of the demo's before they started production and was surprised how accurate and close in craftmanship to Ed Brown's 1911's.

I like the fact that is 100% custom made, and that one person puts all of them together, and you can take with him throughout the process for updates or if you need to make a change. They might seem expensive when you first see the price, but add $1000 on top of that, and that's what you'll pay for a Wilson or Nighthawk.

THANKS. This response was exactly what I was looking for. How many rounds do you have through the Hero? Anything you don't like on the Hero? Really want a Wilson CQB but if a Hero is that close then I am leaning that way.

[SmokyBaer]

Since I'm the OP I can talk to the "hijack" issue and your question is not a hijack, this is just the kind of feedback I was wanting to get.

Cool... I learned a LOT about 1911s by blowing money on the wrong 1911 and losing money by trading off for the one that "fit" better or had better sights or was "tighter". Bottom line is what do YOU like.

My first 1911 was a series 70 Gold Cup that was possibly the most accurate pistol for the money I've ever owned. Didn't know what I had and traded it off only to learn later what a mistake that was. After 30+ years of tinkering with old and new and built a few, I'll throw out my 2 cents...

- My Wilson CQB is THE smoothest 1911 I've ever held. Has never had a hiccup using all kinds of ammo. Still one of my favorites.

- My Les Baer Premiere II is the tightest pistol EVER. I'm still breaking it in. Also, THE most accurate 1911 I've ever shot.

- Colt 1911s are loose in comparison to the Wilson and Baer BUT 100% reliable and never had a complaint on accuracy.

- An old time great friend custom built a Springer for me a long time ago and to this day that pistol has been THE one that has "felt" the best.

- The little Para Carry I have now is very accurate and it's LDA trigger is a two stage with a predictable release.

- The S&W and Kimbers I've handled and shot never let me warm up to them. Extraction issues and FTFs just knocked the shine off for me.

Of the three 1911s I built, the last one most reflects what I like the most and with everyone being different, your list will surely be different and expected. A few of these considerations are:

- full length guide rods versus GI plug

- beavertail safety versus GI standard safety

- standard slide release versus extended release

- ambidextrous thumb safety or standard right thumb

- polished frame feed ramp versus a ramped barrel

- fixed night sights versus adjustable for the range

- front frame checkering versus smooth for Hogue FGs

- short trigger versus long match adjustable trigger

- bull/cone barrel versus standard/NM bushing

Grips and mags are always changing but making your decision based on the features mentioned above will make your choice a LOT more satisfying, in my opinion.

Hope my bourbon talk helped a little.

[Guest Chad Kandros]

smokey is right, there are many things to consider when building one. From machineing the frame rails for a nice tight fit, to handfitting a Kart barrel! when i get done with a build it's got about 50 hours into it! Spend your money wisely and you will have a gun that you will fall in love with! Good luck!

Edited September 14, 2010 by Chad Kandros

[tnhawk]

While I have several 1911s that I enjoy shooting, the TRP gets more use than the others combined.

[Guest motonut]

Smoky, yes the bourbon talk was helpful. Unfortunately the Wilson $2k+ price is a little out of my budget right now. I'm trying to stay under $1k for the 1911, I've already bought a few other firearms (and a safe) this year, maybe next years budget...

I shot Colts in the Navy and while I know those guns were used, abused and generally well worn I think I have a bias against them. Probably unjustified but it is what it is. I've shot a neighbors Smith and was comfortable with it. I'm still looking and thanks for the continued feedback.

[SmokyBaer]

A thousand dollar budget will get a NICE 1911. That said, all you have to do is figure out what you really want and wait for the deal to find you. Always wanted a Wilson and like you, I could not see paying the huge retail they are asking. Mine came as a total surprise when I fortunately had money stashed for a quality top shelf 1911. Patience paid off!

For what you get, a Dan Wesson would be hard to beat and still meet your budget. They are tight, accurate, reliable and made in the USA. My bud shoots one and if I was in the market for a 1911 in your price range, that's what I'd be looking for. Valors shoot nice groups. Some folks love the bobtails too but they are hard to find.

Keep us posted with your decision and post your range report. I am and I know others are always interested in what is out there. Good Huntin!!

[Guest motonut]

A couple more questions. There are a couple of S&W Doug Koenig available, does anyone have any thoughts on those?

What is the CZ / Dan Wesson connection? Does CZ make the Wesson's? I notice from the CZ web site the majority of the DW's are now discontinued and only a few models are still being made.

[Warbird]

A couple more questions. There are a couple of S&W Doug Koenig available, does anyone have any thoughts on those?

What is the CZ / Dan Wesson connection? Does CZ make the Wesson's? I notice from the CZ web site the majority of the DW's are now discontinued and only a few models are still being made.

CZ owns Dan Wesson. DW went out of business several years ago and DW bought the name and revived it making the 1911 guns. DW had been primarily known for their revolvers for many years. They did discontinue several lines and expanded or revamped several other lines. They make an excellent firearm. Unfortunately they began to realize how much people thought of their guns and when they discontinued several lines at the beginning of the year the secret great deal was made less so by a big jump in price for their new guns.

[A.J. Holst]

My buddy bought a Dan Wesson based on his experience with his CZ-75. It's a great 1911 right out of the box. To confirm Warbird's comments - buddy paid around $800 about a year ago, same gun now is $1100 - $1200. From your list, it looks like you are in the higher-end price point; you make want to check out the Fusion line. Same buddy just got a long-slide 1911 in 10mm, virtually a custom build for around $1600.

[eapking]

Don't think you'll find a DW Valor for around 1k, unless it's pretty well used.

[Warbird]

Don't think you'll find a DW Valor for around 1k, unless it's pretty well used.

$1500 is now a pretty good price for a new one. I've seen a lot of them for $1700.

[Guest Plainsman]

The Dan Wesson 1911's sure are lookers too...and its not even a good picture! If I can ever get a chance to make my way back up to CHMR sometime soon, I wouldn't mind letting you shoot my CBOB.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Plainsman

[USMCJG]

A couple more questions. There are a couple of S&W Doug Koenig available, does anyone have any thoughts on those?

What is the CZ / Dan Wesson connection? Does CZ make the Wesson's? I notice from the CZ web site the majority of the DW's are now discontinued and only a few models are still being made.

I just picked up a S&W 1911 a few days ago and am very impressed with the fit, finish, and function so far. I think the Doug Koenig's would be fine pistols. Dan Wesson also has a very good reputation in the 1911 world. They are a highly respected maker. No MIM and lots of Ed Brown parts.

Gotthegoods mentioned Fusion and they are highly respected as well. All of their guns are built to order. There are no production models, just base models that are used as a starting point for custom builds. Lead times are pretty long though. Also, Bob Serva, the man who owns Fusion, used to be the president of Dan Wesson.

[Bassoneer]

I have experience with a couple of 1911's...one I don't like and one that is great. The newer 1911's have lowered and flared ejection ports which make them much more reliable in ejecting spent casings...that was a major problem with my first 1911 because it was an older model that didn't have the lowered and flared ejection port. So, I would leave the older guns for collectors or for occasional shooting with round ball ammo.

I still had a craving for a solid 1911 that would fire a box of ammo reliably, so I purchased one of the modern guns (Springfield Armory Loaded). It has fired reliably since I got it. Most of these newer/high-end 1911's still don't have super-fantastic magazines, and the mags are a key element in reliable feeding of the ammo - I replaced my SA magazine with one from Wilson Combat, which I think is common amongst 1911 owners. It also adds one round to the overall ammo capacity (7 rounds to 8 rounds).

Most of the new 1911's with lowered and flared ejection ports, properly ramped for hollow points, with a good extractor and ejector will do a good job. Good luck...if you get one of these newer guns you will really enjoy shooting it. B

Edited September 19, 2010 by Bassoneer

[Guest Hillbilly Dan]

Just remember, If its not a Colt then its a copy. I have had various Colts for many years and they do not fail.

[Guest dedgar]

Motonut, I have a DW Pointman Major that I've been working on. (extractor issues)

If you would like to give it a try let me know and we'll connect for time and place.

I'm retired so middle of the week is okay too.