Unholstering your weapon

[Punisher84]

I think everyone is in about 98% agreement....the other 2% has more to do the actual specifics in a given situation and can't really be discussed with certainty in general discussion.

He broke out the math. I'm raising the French flag on this one.

[Guest db99wj]

. Sorry, not sure what happened here. Move along, nothing to see here.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I think there's some miscommunication. I'm not going to unholster in a mall, or a parking lot full of people. I'm not going to threaten anybody. It won't be an effort to "show" my weapon to anybody.

I teach security officers and civillians to unholster at a low ready when they think that there is a likelihood of a threat

You might not, but others apparently think it's an acceptable practice. Can anyone tell me what the "likelihood" of a threat is?

A "threat" is subjective. One person may think that drawing their weapon and "hiding" it behind their leg is perfectly acceptable when entering a potentially dangerous, "target rich environment," but, to others, a man walking through their neighborhood holding a pistol is threatening behavior. The law is not black and white. At the end of the day, a judge and jury will decide if it was indeed threatening behavior. And, like many criminal cases, it will be one person's word against another's.

Could an otherwise law-abiding citizen win a case like this? Probably. But how much time and money will it take? Will you lose your job? Your house? Your family?

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

On another note..........drawing a weapon and placing it behind your leg is not "hiding" it, unless your potential adversary is a blind man.

[Guest DanE479]

Guy, you are missing the point. I guess I should explain in detail for you, since you can't comprehend anything not spelled out in detail.

I also see that I used wording that could be twisted around

When I talk about a threat, I'm talking about a specific, identifible threat that has cause you to go from condition yellow to condition orange. It is something that is actively out of place, and that you think has a greater possiblity of wanting to do you harm. I'm not talking about walking down the street with a weapon out in your hand. When you perceive a possible active threat, you stop, find cover/concealment, position yourself so as to have an advantageous location from which to fight from, and start your OODA loop. You scan for further threats while paying attention to the primary (first threat), and figure out if there's a way to aviod a potential confrontation. If there isn't, then go to a low ready, so as to have an advantage.

You need to stop being condescending. I recongnize my own quote, and others do too. You think you are being cute, but you need to check yourself and your attitude. I am a professional trainer that has a dozen years in the industry, and has had some of the finest training around, and also has tons of friends that do this as well that I regularly train with (all of whom are current or former LEO from various states). Drawing to a low ready is a perfectly acceptable tactic that is recognized as valid all over the country for both LEO and civillian applications.

As to your other misguided attempt to call me out, nobody is trying to hide a weapon at a low ready. It is a given that once your weapon is out of concealment, that others can see it (in the case of most regular carry pistols; pocket .380 pistols can sometimes be carried descreetly in one's hand without other people noticing it). In fact, one of the reasons that the pistol is in the low ready position is to avoid (as much as is posible when a weapon is out) the appearance of intimidating or threatening someone. It is a hard to argue that a person is actively threatening someone with a firearm when it is behind their leg with the muzzle pointed at the ground, and no words are coming out of their mouth. For one to be charged/convicted of any type of assault, batery, brandishing, threatening or other law in a similar vein, the person being charged must have actively tried to influence, control, or modify someone's behavior through the threat or use of force. Simply standing there, saying nothing, but having your firearm at a low ready while assesing a potential threat does not meet the legal definition of any of the above laws described. Neither does drawing your weapon from a holster while in your car, and placing it beside your leg (which is a vehicle low ready).

Prove me wrong with specific case law. I am confident that you cannot.

Edited September 14, 2010 by DanE479

[Punisher84]

As I much as I hate to say this, but I'm just gonna finally lay it out. If you're new to the forum simply google Belle Meade Leonard Embody and Radnor Lake. The guy is a nut and I don't support him in anyway, but if there is ever proof that you can walk around with a loaded gun and not be charged...there ya go.

And what he did is not even close to anything Dan, Mike, myself, and others are discussing.

Good post by the way Dan.

[Punisher84]

Anyone who would walk down a city street, with a loaded handgun in their hand, not only should lose their permit but should also do some time behind bars. Idiots like that give other permit holders a bad name.

He did lose his permit and you have no idea of his history here. That's why I clearly state I don't agree with what he did/does/represents. However, he is the most extreme example and he did not get charged.

[mikegideon]

He did lose his permit and you have no idea of his history here. That's why I clearly state I don't agree with what he did/does/represents. However, he is the most extreme example and he did not get charged.

Don't forget his most amazing feat of stupidity... the Draco pistol at Radnor Lake. Don't think that was holstered either.

DUH: That's what I get for reading posts via email. I see your post now Pun

Edited September 14, 2010 by mikegideon

[Punisher84]

Don't forget his most amazing feat of stupidity... the Draco pistol at Radnor Lake. Don't think that was holstered either.

DUH: That's what I get for reading posts via email. I see your post now Pun

All good I have the same problem sometimes when I use the iphone app.

[Chucktshoes]

LoL somehow I knew this thread was going to end up here. However, I am surprised it took 4 pages to do it.

[Punisher84]

LoL somehow I knew this thread was going to end up here. However, I am surprised it took 4 pages to do it.

Sometimes people need dramatic examples. No one is more dramatic than ole Leo.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Guy, you are missing the point. I guess I should explain in detail for you, since you can't comprehend anything not spelled out in detail.

I also see that I used wording that could be twisted around

When I talk about a threat, I'm talking about a specific, identifible threat that has cause you to go from condition yellow to condition orange. It is something that is actively out of place, and that you think has a greater possiblity of wanting to do you harm. I'm not talking about walking down the street with a weapon out in your hand. When you perceive a possible active threat, you stop, find cover/concealment, position yourself so as to have an advantageous location from which to fight from, and start your OODA loop. You scan for further threats while paying attention to the primary (first threat), and figure out if there's a way to aviod a potential confrontation. If there isn't, then go to a low ready, so as to have an advantage.

You need to stop being condescending. I recongnize my own quote, and others do too. You think you are being cute, but you need to check yourself and your attitude. I am a professional trainer that has a dozen years in the industry, and has had some of the finest training around, and also has tons of friends that do this as well that I regularly train with (all of whom are current or former LEO from various states). Drawing to a low ready is a perfectly acceptable tactic that is recognized as valid all over the country for both LEO and civillian applications.

As to your other misguided attempt to call me out, nobody is trying to hide a weapon at a low ready. It is a given that once your weapon is out of concealment, that others can see it (in the case of most regular carry pistols; pocket .380 pistols can sometimes be carried descreetly in one's hand without other people noticing it). In fact, one of the reasons that the pistol is in the low ready position is to avoid (as much as is posible when a weapon is out) the appearance of intimidating or threatening someone. It is a hard to argue that a person is actively threatening someone with a firearm when it is behind their leg with the muzzle pointed at the ground, and no words are coming out of their mouth. For one to be charged/convicted of any type of assault, batery, brandishing, threatening or other law in a similar vein, the person being charged must have actively tried to influence, control, or modify someone's behavior through the threat or use of force. Simply standing there, saying nothing, but having your firearm at a low ready while assesing a potential threat does not meet the legal definition of any of the above laws described. Neither does drawing your weapon from a holster while in your car, and placing it beside your leg (which is a vehicle low ready).

Prove me wrong with specific case law. I am confident that you cannot.

Dan, I'm sorry this has been hard for you to follow. I'm combining and debating a number of concepts that have been espoused and supported here in a single line of thought. My use of quotes I'd intentional, as these are the actual words used by other posters here. Let me address you specifically.

In two posts, you've now defined your "draw to low ready" circumstance with two rather distinct, yet naively vague wording. In your first post, you u discuss the " likelihood" of a threat as time to draw to low ready. Now, it's a "specific, identifiable threat". Well, which is it? These would seem to be two distinct concepts, yet you lead us to believe they are one in the same. Would you like to define it a third time, or do you want to stick with your second description?

I agree that drawing on a specific, identifiable threat might be a logical thing to do. But what defines a threat? There are just too many scenarios to imagine. All of the training I've received tells me that I should only draw my weapon in public if I believe my life is in immediate danger from someone with the intent, capacity and proximity to do me harm. In reading some of the comments here, I am led to believe there are others that will draw their weapons much sooner, trusting their misguided belief that their actions 1) are protected and allowable under the law and 2) would not be construed as a threat by anyone else in the general public. That scares me a bit.

I'm sorry you think I'm being condescending. Rereading your last post, do you really think you're the right person to lecture me on that topic?

The advice I give is that of a civilian....with a lot of training. I have received over 200 hours of firearms related training over the last 15 years, from some of best trainers in the country. I've taken classes specifically focuses on self defense laws, tactics and scenarios. That said, I don't pretend to be an expert. I have my opinions, but they are just that. You are implying above that you are a professional trainer and, therefore, know better than the rest of us. That may be, but it's difficult to determine when using a screen name on the Internet. It would be helpful to us mere mortals if you would fully identify yourself, your training academies, your law enforcement experience and any other pertinent information that may help us better comprehend your level of expertise.

[Fallguy]

Between Kwik, personal attacks and it strating to go in circles....I think this thread is done.