Unholstering your weapon

[Guest EB31]

No. You're just insecure and think all comments are about you. Must be a horrible way to live. I pity you. I'll pray for you though. Maybe.

My "age changing" comments had absolutely...let me be clear.....ZERO to do with you. There was no rhyme or reason behind your demanding an answer from me. You hold no more weight here than I do. I don't answer to you. Deal with it. You simply became paronoid and assumed I was speaking about you. How you came to that conclussion I'll never know. Nor do I care to know.

Now....either you can get over yourself and move on or you can continue to hold this petty little grudge for no other reason than you were wrong in your assinine assumptions and aren't man enough to admit it. Either way ....I couldn't care less. Contrary to what you might like to believe you matter less to me than the color of the turd I crapped out earlier tonight. I sleep peacefully regardless of what you think of me.

Now. I'm going to take the higher road for now and ignore your juvenile responses. Once you decide you want converse decently...pm me and we can talk. Until then....kick rocks junior.

[Punisher84]

No. You're just insecure and think all comments are about you. Must be a horrible way to live. I pity you. I'll pray for you though. Maybe.

My "age changing" comments had absolutely...let me be clear.....ZERO to do with you. There was no rhyme or reason behind your demanding an answer from me. You hold no more weight here than I do. I don't answer to you. Deal with it. You simply became paronoid and assumed I was speaking about you. How you came to that conclussion I'll never know. Nor do I care to know.

Now....either you can get over yourself and move on or you can continue to hold this petty little grudge for no other reason than you were wrong in your assinine assumptions and aren't man enough to admit it. Either way ....I couldn't care less. Contrary to what you might like to believe you matter less to me than the color of the turd I crapped out earlier tonight. I sleep peacefully regardless of what you think of me.

Now. I'm going to take the higher road for now and ignore your juvenile responses. Once you decide you want converse decently...pm me and we can talk. Until then....kick rocks junior.

Well let me put it simply. You got pissy because you were disagreed with in a thread, then YOU made a statement about someone changing their age to appear older. Here is why I called you out and had an issue with it. Only TGO David can change your birthday once you've signed up for the forum.

You were also the one who brought a grudge in here with your useful turnip comment. So spin it all you want, but in less than a month and a 100 posts I think you've shown exactly how little you bring to the table as a forum member.

So that's pretty much all I've got to say about it. People like you come and go here all the time. Bad attitudes and tough talk from behind a computer and too dumb to realize they contradict themselves in the same paragraph by telling someone to be decent then calling them "junior" and telling them to "go kick rocks". You're obviously a very mature and stable member of society. Feel free to have the last word if you wish, but I'm done making you look like the fool you obviously are.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Well there are 3 things that are very obvious from your posts.

1. You like to make assumptions.

2. You have very poor reading comprehension

3. You don't know what you're talking about.

I love how you "assumed" from my "demeanor" here that I walk around with a gun in my hand tell little old ladies to "F off". I rarely even OC. Thank you though for completely missing the point of the original topic and trying to argue with a bunch of people who are obviously much more knowledgeable about the laws of the state of TN than you.

Well, the topic evolved. Some of us are capable of keeping up. If not, we'd have two pages telling the op how badly he misunderstood a common firearm quote.

It's a shame we can't have a reasonable conversation. With a screen name like punisher and the grim reaper for a avatar, I'm sure your normally level headed and even tempered. I'll guess you're just angry with my lack if reading comprehension and leave it at that. I'm sure that, once I've obtained your level of expertise in self defense (something you seem to equate with length if time as a board member) well be best friends.

[Punisher84]

Well, the topic evolved. Some of us are capable of keeping up. If not, we'd have two pages telling the op how badly he misunderstood a common firearm quote.

It's a shame we can't have a reasonable conversation. With a screen name like punisher and the grim reaper for a avatar, I'm sure your normally level headed and even tempered. I'll guess you're just angry with my lack if reading comprehension and leave it at that. I'm sure that, once I've obtained your level of expertise in self defense (something you seem to equate with length if time as a board member) well be best friends.

There ya go with the assumptions again. You don't know me dude so why don't you quit? I'm not yelling or cursing at you. I'm not calling you childish names or threatening you. I'd say that's fairly level headed. Maybe you're just new to forums.

As far as length of time here equating to expertise I think far from it. Post count and time on the forum could mean less to me, quality of posts though...different story.

My experience comes from training and working in and around the firearms training industry in the past and real life experiences. If you don't like being disagreed with I'm sorry, but personal attacks, no matter how you attempt to sugar coat them, aren't a good way to win a debate.

[Fallguy]

Ok guys.....let's get away from making comments about each other.

Thanks...

[DaveTN]

Even LEOs get into trouble with this one. Department policy usually doesn't allow clearing the weapon from the holster unless the officer is threatened to the point of firing.

Police officers are under the same requirements under the law as citizens (let me be clear what I mean when I say this - the law either authroizes deadly force - and therefore the threat of deadly force - or it doesn't there is no middle ground). There are couple of extra circumstances where a police officer is allowed to threaten deadly force were a regular citizen is not. But, if holding a weapon at the low ready or to the side of one's leg hidden from view was considered a threat of deadly force, it would apply to police officers and citizens alike.

Quote a case of a cop anywhere, ever, in any state, that has been charged for pulling a gun on someone in the line of duty.

1. You are a “Special Groupâ€. You have privileges that most citizens do not have.

2. The Police are a “Special Groupâ€. They have privileges that you don’t have.

#1 doesn’t sit well with a lot of citizens, #2 doesn’t sit well with a lot of group #1.

You guys crack me up.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

.... but personal attacks, no matter how you attempt to sugar coat them, aren't a good way to win a debate.

Agreed. Do you really think you're living up to that standard?

You should go start a thread about how awful the new member are......oh, nevermind.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Quote a case of a cop anywhere, ever, in any state, that has been charged for pulling a gun on someone in the line of duty.

1. You are a Special Group. You have privileges that most citizens do not have.

2. The Police are a Special Group. They have privileges that you dont have.

#1 doesnt sit well with a lot of citizens, #2 doesnt sit well with a lot of group #1.

You guys crack me up.

Agreed. While the laws for the use of deadly force may be the same, the application to cops vs civilians can be vastly different. It is a dangerous road to travel if one patterns their ccw behavior on the police.

[JayC]

Again, read the question I asked please... I'm aware of the teenager/interstate case... the man pointed the weapon at the teenagers, and made a verbal threat according to the news report.

In your second post EVERY case you pointed out, the person in question took another threatening action...

Guy gets into an 'argument' retreats to his truck, pulls a weapon, racks the slide, and then comes around the vehicle towards another man in an aggressive manner is assault... We're talking apples and oranges here.... This isn't the behavior Mike was describing. There is a huge difference between pulling and pointing a firearm, and what we're talking about...

As for my own personal incident... exit the vehicle and go where? Into the middle of a big empty parking lot? I'm not running very far anymore While you're right the vehicle isn't the best form of cover (but in this case it was far better than any alternative around), it is a good form of concealment...

As far as your suggestion of ramming the other vehicle... that would have been the same as pointing at gun at somebody... I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that unless things had gone sideways. And going forward wasn't an option, the curb and vertical concrete vehicle poles would have prevented that (yes, I know stupid stupid stupid, hind sight is always 20-20.. I knew better but allowed my guard to drop in an area that I didn't feel was dangerous)

Cognito, you keep making the assumption I was using my firearm... I wasn't... I moved it to a more accessible location in case I needed to use it. I didn't take any aggressive action, nor do something crazy like jump out of the car and confront whoever was blocking my vehicle... I waited to see what happened next and tried to be prepared for the worse in case it happened. The moral of this story is there are times that reducing the amount of time it takes you to bring your weapon up is prudent, and often when you take that action you're not yet in a position to make a self defense shooting.

Even if you don't agree in this case... how would you clear your house in the middle of the night after hearing a loud noise? With your handgun in a holster?

Interesting that in the past seven years that I've lived in Nashville I can recall several articles where I recall an otherwise law abiding citizen was arrested for pulling a gun in a questionable situation. Not too long ago, a permit holder pulled a gun on a group on teens on the interstate. He wad arrested and claimed that the teens had threatened him. It wad probably about a year ago; I'm sure you could find it in the tennessean archives.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure you could find DOZENS of examples where one citizen pulls a firearm on another, gets arrested, them claims it was self defense. They may not all be permit holders, or perfect angels, but it happens all the time. You don't recognize them because you do what most people do: you assume the gun toting citizen was in the wrong because the situation didn't call for lethal force.

I find it curious that with all your training and expertise that you didn't.....at any point during your near death experience...... attempt to exit the vehicle or distance yourself from the threat. Being trapped in the car is the WORST place to be, since neither glass or sheet metal is bullet proof. You didn't attempt to drive off, or ram the car behind you. Did you turn on the ignition, or put the car in gear? Did you get out your flashlight and scan for your threat? The gun is not the first step in self defense..... it's the last. When you rule out the gun in all but real lethal encounters (not teenage bathroom breaks) you'll find that it makes you think about all sorts of less than lethal defense options.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Again, read the question I asked please... I'm aware of the teenager/interstate case... the man pointed the weapon at the teenagers, and made a verbal threat according to the news report.

In your second post EVERY case you pointed out, the person in question took another threatening action...

Guy gets into an 'argument' retreats to his truck, pulls a weapon, racks the slide, and then comes around the vehicle towards another man in an aggressive manner is assault... We're talking apples and oranges here.... This isn't the behavior Mike was describing. There is a huge difference between pulling and pointing a firearm, and what we're talking about...

As for my own personal incident... exit the vehicle and go where? Into the middle of a big empty parking lot? I'm not running very far anymore While you're right the vehicle isn't the best form of cover (but in this case it was far better than any alternative around), it is a good form of concealment...

As far as your suggestion of ramming the other vehicle... that would have been the same as pointing at gun at somebody... I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that unless things had gone sideways. And going forward wasn't an option, the curb and vertical concrete vehicle poles would have prevented that (yes, I know stupid stupid stupid, hind sight is always 20-20.. I knew better but allowed my guard to drop in an area that I didn't feel was dangerous)

Cognito, you keep making the assumption I was using my firearm... I wasn't... I moved it to a more accessible location in case I needed to use it. I didn't take any aggressive action, nor do something crazy like jump out of the car and confront whoever was blocking my vehicle... I waited to see what happened next and tried to be prepared for the worse in case it happened. The moral of this story is there are times that reducing the amount of time it takes you to bring your weapon up is prudent, and often when you take that action you're not yet in a position to make a self defense shooting.

Even if you don't agree in this case... how would you clear your house in the middle of the night after hearing a loud noise? With your handgun in a holster?

No, in every article I referenced it you assume that the aggressor took another threatening action. Nowhere in the article about the truck did it say that he pointed the weapon. He did state that he feared for his life, so he went and got his weapon and put it in an operable condition.

How is that any different then removing your firearm from your holster simply because some kids did something you considered threatening? If they had seen your gun and called police, do you think you would have been seen as a good guy, or would we have been reading an article about "HCP Holder Pulls Gun on Children in Public Park"?

You keep asking about self defense situations in the home, which is a completely different situation than being in public. My home is my property. Being in it through forced entry without my permission makes you a threat to me in the eyes of the law, and anyone with a lick of common sense. Someone willing to break into my home while I'm present IS a threat that can be met with lethal force.

Drawing a gun to deal with someone who has illegally entered my home and drawing it to defend against someone running to the bathroom in a public place are two completely different scenarios that require different levels of response.

[JayC]

Agreed. While the laws for the use of deadly force may be the same, the application to cops vs civilians can be vastly different. It is a dangerous road to travel if one patterns their ccw behavior on the police.

Let me try this one last time...

1. To use deadly force or serious bodily injury are generally illegal in the state of TN.

2. There are a limited number of exceptions to that general rule. Most of those exceptions are available to all citizens and a couple extra are only available to law enforcement.

3. You may only threaten to use deadly force or serious bodily injury when you would otherwise be legally allowed to use said force. If not, you're breaking the law(s).

4. There is no special exception for police officers to threaten deadly force when they lack the ability to use deadly force under the law.

The point here is that department policy must conform to the law, there clearly are cases where officers pull their weapons but are not yet in a situation that justifies using deadly force.

Your argument is that they're just allowed to threaten deadly force whenever they feel like it, and regular citizens can't do that....

The argument from experts in police policy take an entirely different approach, that low ready, unholstering the firearm, disabling the retention system etc are not in and of themselves a threat to use deadly force. I'd have no trouble finding a number of police officers who are expert witnesses to testify to that.

Leonard's encounter with the Belle Meade PD is a perfect example of this... Here you have a man with a loaded firearm in his hand, if you watch the video very closely you'll notice a number of things. First, he wasn't charged with assault (and trust me if they could have charged him with something they would have).... He had a firearm in the hand out of a holster, you're entire argument is that is a threat to use deadly force. Second, at least 1 of the officers can be seen disabling the retention system on their holster when approaching Leonard.

Leonard's stunt proves that more is needed to charge an activist nutjob with assault that just having a handgun in the hand.

Is it stupid to use by the hand carry as your default carry method YES, nobody here is trying to make the argument that unholstering your weapon is a good idea all the time. But clearly there are cases where unholstering your weapon is prudent, yet not a threat to use deadly force in and of itself.

As for it's a bad idea to learn from police policy and procedures I disagree, there are a lot of very good habits that I've picked up over the years from friends in the law enforcement community. 1. Back Up Guns 2. Carrying Extra Ammo 3. Retention Holsters - to just name 3.

The law enforcement community has a very dangerous job, it can go from peaceful traffic stop to an all out fight for survival in mere seconds. The training and tactics they use to come home every night are useful for HCP holders to study and learn from. Many of those are not things we can directly do ourselves, but they do give us plenty of insight into what does work, and how it can be adapted to our daily lives.

[JayC]

No, in every article I referenced it you assume that the aggressor took another threatening action. Nowhere in the article about the truck did it say that he pointed the weapon. He did state that he feared for his life, so he went and got his weapon and put it in an operable condition.

And then advanced around the truck back towards the other man. That is the key part... if he had retreated to his vehicle and gained access to a firearm and stayed there 'in fear for his life' and them made the first reasonable attempt to contact the police of retreat further he wouldn't have been arrested IMHO. You keep missing the key detail in these examples, it's not the act of placing the gun in hand by itself it's other actions combined with that one that make it an assault.

How is that any different then removing your firearm from your holster simply because some kids did something you considered threatening? If they had seen your gun and called police, do you think you would have been seen as a good guy, or would we have been reading an article about "HCP Holder Pulls Gun on Children in Public Park"?

My firearm was sitting between my leg and the arm rest in the vehicle, the only way somebody would have seen it is if they ran up on the vehicle at night in the dark. I would have had no problem relating my reasonable fear to any police officer and I'm confident my actions that night were justifiable. I didn't pull my gun on anybody... I just placed in in a more 'comfortable' position.

You keep asking about self defense situations in the home, which is a completely different situation than being in public. My home is my property. Being in it through forced entry without my permission makes you a threat to me in the eyes of the law, and anyone with a lick of common sense. Someone willing to break into my home while I'm present IS a threat that can be met with lethal force.

It is the same, in both cases you aren't yet ready to shoot, yet tactically the situation calls for quicker access to your firearm. There are times outside the home where this can be true as well, and legal.

Drawing a gun to deal with someone who has illegally entered my home and drawing it to defend against someone running to the bathroom in a public place are two completely different scenarios that require different levels of response.

I to this day don't have any idea what they did it in the dark... It could have been a strange bathroom break, it could have been something far worse and for some reason they choose not to do it... I have no clue... I didn't threaten deadly force because the situation didn't call for it... I did move my firearm from a hard to draw location to a location where my response would have been quicker if I had been threatened. I'm comfortable that I did the right thing with the information I knew at the time.

I'm done with this thread, I've stated my point, it's clear some folks just can't see any other view point other than their own.

Edited September 8, 2010 by JayC

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Let me try this one last time...

1. To use deadly force or serious bodily injury are generally illegal in the state of TN.

2. There are a limited number of exceptions to that general rule. Most of those exceptions are available to all citizens and a couple extra are only available to law enforcement.

3. You may only threaten to use deadly force or serious bodily injury when you would otherwise be legally allowed to use said force. If not, you're breaking the law(s).

4. There is no special exception for police officers to threaten deadly force when they lack the ability to use deadly force under the law.

The point here is that department policy must conform to the law, there clearly are cases where officers pull their weapons but are not yet in a situation that justifies using deadly force.

Your argument is that they're just allowed to threaten deadly force whenever they feel like it, and regular citizens can't do that....

.

No, Jay, that is not my argument at all. Read my posts again.

While the law may treat the use of deadly force the same between le and civilian, the le will ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt in a questionable situation. The private citizen will not. An officer may draw his weapon on a traffic stop because the driver is seen fishing under his seat. No one will question that behavior and he will not suffer any sanctions or punishment for that behavior. Do you think you would get away with drawing a weapon and approaching a car, simply because the driver is doing something fishy? If that driver feels threatened and calls the police, you could easily end up in jail and even convicted. If the driver is also a law abiding citizen, it will become a "he said, she said" situation. Guess what? Many people (including judges, jurors and newspaper reporters) will assume you were the bg, simply because you had the gun. Like it or not, hcp holders are held to a higher standard.

I think I've beat this horse to death, and now were going in circles debating inaccurate assumptions and misguided defense tactics. I'll leave it with this: the only time I would ever unholster my gun in public is if I am confident my life is in immediate danger from someone who has shown capacity, intent and proximity to do me harm. I will not unholster it because someone does something unusual in a parking lot. I will not unholster it because I find myself walking through a bad neighborhood. Im confident in my abilities to discern the difference between a life and death situation and random bizarre behavior from people around me. Because I've trained, I'm confident in my ability to deploy my firearm quickly when I recognize a threat. I also understand that the law is not as black and white as it seems on paper, and my actions will be viewed, evaluated and judged by those who may think differently than me.

You may, of course, do as you pleased based on your understanding of proper self defense tactics.

Thanks for the interesting debate.

[Erik88]

this thread is awesome

[kimbercarry]

You have carried for along time, what size 1911 do you carry and is it a steel version?

Trigram, I am 68 yrs old. The school used 2 of my weapons in our eight grade play so that should help to establish a timeline. 50+ years ago having firearms was not a big deal. If you knocked on someone's door after dark, a weapon was involved. I carried various sidearms (usually without a holster) until the early 70's and switched to A Colt Gov Mod "Series 70" shortly after purchased a Colt Lt Wt series 70 Commander due to lighter wt and shorter slide. Both required throating to feed the hollowpoints and with the standard barrels would keep the group at 15 yards in a "syrup bucket" Carried the Commander until I became aware of the Para Ord P12 with 12 round capacity +1 in the chamber so I went in that direction and found it too heavy for my taste (accuracy great) so I looked to Kimber and fell in love with the "Kimber Ulta elite". Small package, light wt., melt down treatment, 8 rounds of .45, and at 25yds more accurate than any of my other weapons. After several thousand rounds, I decided that was the weapon for me so I purchased another one, rigged up a Galco dual shoulder rig for my "Sunday go to meeting" outfit. I carry at least 1 of them everyday in a Kramer #3 horsehide IWB.

Aluminum frame and MIM parts, the only changes made are a set of Hogue rubbed grips.

Purchased a "Colt" Defender, Reliable and accurate but too little too late so I stayed with the 3" Kimbers.

All my Kimbers still have the MIM parts and have been dropped with resulting blemishes

[mikegideon]

this thread is awesome

Yep. I've learned. Gonna hook up with Kegger later today and get him to teach me how to shoot without removing my gun from the holster . That will make EVERYBODY happy.

[Punisher84]

Yep. I've learned. Gonna hook up with Kegger later today and get him to teach me how to shoot without removing my gun from the holster . That will make EVERYBODY happy.

Gonna go buy a Glock?

[mikegideon]

Gonna go buy a Glock?

Nope. Works with an M&P too.

[Punisher84]

Nope. Works with an M&P too.

Lol

[JayC]

Yep. I've learned. Gonna hook up with Kegger later today and get him to teach me how to shoot without removing my gun from the holster . That will make EVERYBODY happy.

Can I tag along, that seems like a useful skill to learn Although we need to be careful not to run afoul of ATF regulations

[mikegideon]

Can I tag along, that seems like a useful skill to learn Although we need to be careful not to run afoul of ATF regulations

Gotta see if he perfected it first. Last time he shot a hole in his pants

[BigK]

Now, nobody here is suggesting running around with a pistol in the hand is a good idea... only that moving your weapon from your holster to your hand to have quicker access to it, is by itself not assault. You must do something else, such as point the weapon, say something, or act in some manner that is otherwise threatening.

To run with this for a second, I agree. Walking around with a gun in your hand as a method of carry is stupid. The entire point of my posts, and those who passed the 6th grade seemed to have gotten this including you, is that simply pulling your weapon from your holster is not brandishing as some would like to believe. The law does not support it, case law does not support it. The only thing that our new member Guy has proved by posting those cases, one which doesn't even apply to TN law, is that all of them had some sort of intent when they drew and POINTED their firearm.

I wasn't arguing with you guys and unless I'm overlooking something in the TCA text, I agree with you. I know your "walking down the street with a gun in your hand" example was just an illustration of the vagueries in the law. I also agree that I can pull my gun, having it at the ready without pointing it at someone, and not be threatening someone's life or brandishing a firearm, too. There's undeniably a point somewhere b/w code yellow and code red, where you get ready, but don't yet have cause to use or threaten deadly force.

I think most of the examples that were used to the contrary were NOT cases where someone took their gun out to "get ready for trouble". They were examples where someone held someone at gunpoint, threatened someone overtly, or were just being stupid.

[Guest EB31]

I was taught it's never wise to listen to :poop:house lawyers.

I would also think twice before believing you can draw your weapon...even if not aiming at someone...and have it not be considered "brandishing".

Brandishing a firearm can and does included "..exhibiting a weapon in a threatening manner". Exhibiting...ie displaying, showing. Call and speak to an attorney about this. I did today.

I was told what I already believed to be true. If you so much as raise you shirt to expose your weapon to "make a point"...and let's not play on words..we all know exactly what I'm talking about...that can and in most cases will be considered "brandishing a weapon".

Just be smart an speak to an attorney...better yet, call several. Ask them to define the law as it pertains to brandishing a firearm.

[Punisher84]

I wasn't arguing with you guys and unless I'm overlooking something in the TCA text, I agree with you. I know your "walking down the street with a gun in your hand" example was just an illustration of the vagueries in the law. I also agree that I can pull my gun, having it at the ready without pointing it at someone, and not be threatening someone's life or brandishing a firearm, too. There's undeniably a point somewhere b/w code yellow and code red, where you get ready, but don't yet have cause to use or threaten deadly force.

I think most of the examples that were used to the contrary were NOT cases where someone took their gun out to "get ready for trouble". They were examples where someone held someone at gunpoint, threatened someone overtly, or were just being stupid.

Agreed and I didn't think you were arguing with us The problem with topics like this is there are always grey areas in the law. Some people commit flat out assault and never get charged. Not advocating breaking the law obviously, but just because person A's experience is that it does or does not always happen doesn't mean that's what the intention of the law is.

[Punisher84]

I was told what I already believed to be true. If you so much as raise you shirt to expose your weapon to "make a point"...and let's not play on words..we all know exactly what I'm talking about...that can and in most cases will be considered "brandishing a weapon".

Just be smart an speak to an attorney...better yet, call several. Ask them to define the law as it pertains to brandishing a firearm.

And therein lies the "intent" part. You're displaying your firearm to make a threat. However if you were carrying open it would not be considered brandishing.

We actually finally agree on one thing though, talking to a lawyer is a good idea. I've worked around firearms trainers for several years and have consulted lawyers frequently on a variety of topics. It's why I hold the opinions I do. Whether internet folk agree with them or not.