Unholstering your weapon

[Fallguy]

So wait a minute...I forgot.....should I take it out the holster at night or not?

[mikegideon]

So wait a minute...I forgot.....should I take it out the holster at night or not?

Yes, but you need to put it back in if you have to shoot somebody

[mikegideon]

They both were hypothetical; I'm sorry I didn't speak in simpler terms for your benefit.

Let's talk about brandishing: it's really in the eyes of the beholder. Let's say (as a hypothetical) that our friend Punisher decided to go walking through a "bad" neighborhood carrying his piece in his hands. Assume a neighbor verbal confronts him about the weapon. Now, I don't know punisher in person, but I can guess from his demeanor here that his response would be less than friendly. For duscussions sake, let's assume he says "f u, lady, I hav a permit and I can carry anywhere I please. Mind your own business.". As he speaks, he waives his arms a bit. Neighbor call police and they respond to a " man with a gun" call. When the police interview the lady, she states that he " waived the gun" and that she felt threatened. Is it brandishing?

Ultimately, it's up to the courts to decide. In the right situation, I think it's quite likely that one could be found guilty of brandishing. How many months do you want to spend in jail or how much money do you want to spend on a defense simply to exercise your rights under the carry law..... For no good reason whatsoever.

But nobody said anything about carrying a gun down the street Kwik style. We're talking about getting CONTROL of the weapon, and keeping it OUT of SIGHT. If you think you're going to draw your weapon after a thug gets the drop on you, you're wrong. It's REAL important to win a shootout.

[molonlabetn]

They both were hypothetical; I'm sorry I didn't speak in simpler terms for your benefit.

Let's talk about brandishing: it's really in the eyes of the beholder. Let's say (as a hypothetical) that our friend Punisher decided to go walking through a "bad" neighborhood carrying his piece in his hands. Assume a neighbor verbal confronts him about the weapon. Now, I don't know punisher in person, but I can guess from his demeanor here that his response would be less than friendly. For duscussions sake, let's assume he says "f u, lady, I hav a permit and I can carry anywhere I please. Mind your own business.". As he speaks, he waives his arms a bit. Neighbor call police and they respond to a " man with a gun" call. When the police interview the lady, she states that he " waived the gun" and that she felt threatened. Is it brandishing?

Ultimately, it's up to the courts to decide. In the right situation, I think it's quite likely that one could be found guilty of brandishing. How many months do you want to spend in jail or how much money do you want to spend on a defense simply to exercise your rights under the carry law..... For no good reason whatsoever.

You really need to read the entire discussion...

The topic asks under what conditions should one unholster their weapon. I and several others explicitly stated that it is not prudent to do so unless the situation fits the legal definition of using deadly force in self defense (whether or not you discharge your weapon, it is still use of deadly force). However, the argument was separated into a discussion of whether it was reasonable to unholster your weapon for the purpose of having it more accessible vs. unholstering during a non-lethal altercation. In both scenarios, I never said that I would or anyone should do such a thing (quite the contrary, if you would have read my previous statements)... but neither is there a law prohibiting one from carrying a pistol in their hand, as long as they are not threatening anyone with it... Which therefore makes it perfectly reasonable in certain situations, if one believes that a life-threatening encounter may confront them before they could normally react and draw from their holster. Personally, my solution would be to have thought well enough ahead to be carrying in a way which I was confident I could access quickly, or even better, avoided being in such a place entirely... But there is nothing unreasonable or illegal about having your weapon at ready in a 'threat-rich' environment, even before a specific threat is identified.

As far as walking down the street, gun in hand, to the dismay of other people who are obviously not threats... that's ridiculous.

Overall, speculating about the need to unholster your weapon without an actual threat presenting itself is far less useful than discussing the more likely issue of identifying a real threat and reacting to it. Noone interested in legally applying deadly force should be interested in escalating or pre-empting a simply uncomfortable situation with no justification.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I read it. I feel it necessary, however, to respond when the old "the law says you can carry any way you want" argument comes out, as there ARE people stupid enough to go walking around holding a loaded weapon. You might have a rational view on the topic, but others do not. When they make bad decisions, it impacts all of us.

You really need to read the entire discussion...

The topic asks under what conditions should one unholster their weapon. I and several others explicitly stated that it is not prudent to do so unless the situation fits the legal definition of using deadly force in self defense (whether or not you discharge your weapon, it is still use of deadly force). However, the argument was separated into a discussion of whether it was reasonable to unholster your weapon for the purpose of having it more accessible vs. unholstering during a non-lethal altercation. In both scenarios, I never said that I would or anyone should do such a thing (quite the contrary, if you would have read my previous statements)... but neither is there a law prohibiting one from carrying a pistol in their hand, as long as they are not threatening anyone with it... Which therefore makes it perfectly reasonable in certain situations, if one believes that a life-threatening encounter may confront them before they could normally react and draw from their holster. Personally, my solution would be to have thought well enough ahead to be carrying in a way which I was confident I could access quickly, or even better, avoided being in such a place entirely... But there is nothing unreasonable or illegal about having your weapon at ready in a 'threat-rich' environment, even before a specific threat is identified.

As far as walking down the street, gun in hand, to the dismay of other people who are obviously not threats... that's ridiculous.

Overall, speculating about the need to unholster your weapon without an actual threat presenting itself is far less useful than discussing the more likely issue of identifying a real threat and reacting to it. Noone interested in legally applying deadly force should be interested in escalating or pre-empting a simply uncomfortable situation with no justification.

[JayC]

That's because a police officer isn't going to be charged with threatening someone with a deadly weapon. However, if you or I were in a situation in which we are justified in threatening deadly force, that is the same as using it. You can't do that unless you are in fear of imminent bodily harm... so unless something changes between the time you start to draw and your finger finds the trigger, the only reason for you to have drawn is a reason which requires you to fire. Otherwise, you are threatening someone with deadly force for a reason which does not meet the justification for doing so, legally.

Police officers are under the same requirements under the law as citizens (let me be clear what I mean when I say this - the law either authroizes deadly force - and therefore the threat of deadly force - or it doesn't there is no middle ground). There are couple of extra circumstances where a police officer is allowed to threaten deadly force were a regular citizen is not. But, if holding a weapon at the low ready or to the side of one's leg hidden from view was considered a threat of deadly force, it would apply to police officers and citizens alike.

I contend that merely holding your pistol at a low ready or pulled from the holster and hidden behind your back/leg is not a threat in and of itself... That some other action would have to be taken (spoken threat, or some other behavior) to rise to the level of a threat. Same goes for having your hand on your weapon, that action alone does not make it a threat.

I come home and my front door is sitting wide open... it's perfectly reasonable to bring the weapon out of the holster and to a low ready even if I'm not in direct threat, because the situation clearly indicates a higher level of threat... A guy comes rushing out of my door isn't going to get me charged with threatening him in that case, nor is my neighbor across the street when I'm not facing or interacting with them either.

I'm not suggesting that we should all go running around with loaded pistols in your hands at the low ready, but there are times where pulling your weapon and having it more ready is a perfectly legal and valid tactic... for that reason some police departments train their officers to do this, and consider it a valid tactic... I'd have no problem finding examples of officers clearing leather but not pointing the weapon at a suspect that would clearly not have been justified shooting at that exact second.

Edited September 7, 2010 by JayC

[JayC]

Can you cite some example cases? That just doesn't seem to hold true to reported self defense shootings we've seen documented here in the past. I can name 3 different cases where Bad Guy has a gun, Good guy has a gun... good guy gets released from the scene not arrested and bad guy is dead or goes to jail.

LEA have a lot to do with it... generally if they don't arrest you... it's very rare for a DA to push a case forward.

Also, my experience of documented cases doesn't jive with yours... Guy A with has a HCP fires on guy B who is a convicted felon, with a firearm and a rap sheet of armed robberies... I've yet to see guy A get charged in TN... What DA in his right mind is going to take a he said he said case to a jury in TN where 1 person has never been in trouble with the law, and the other guy is a known armed robber?

Here is another example that happened less than 2 years ago in Metro Nashville... women (HCP) finds car thief breaking into her car... holds susp[ect at gun point while waiting on the police... police get there arrest suspect, after verifying woman's HCP status sends her into the house... not charges filed... technically she broke the law... but it's much easier to arrest the real bad guy and give the good citizen a pass.

The reality is, most police officers don't want to arrest law abiding citizens who stop a bad guy from hurting them... In most cases telling who's the good guy and who's the bad guy is pretty straight forward... It's rare for good guys to get themselves arrested let alone charged and convicted here in TN.

I agree in TN trying to pull a citizens arrest is often a very bad idea, and unless your job requires you to do so and you've had extensive training, it's generally better to be a good witness for the cops than to attempt one.

BTW, looking at how police do certain things to protect themselves is a good idea... if you're ever involved in a SD shooting, following documented examples of what the 'experts' do in life threatening situations is something that will tend to benefit you IMHO.

I'll give you a perfect example, somebody knocks on my door at 2am, I'm going to have a gun in my hand hidden behind my back leg when I go to answer the door. I'm willing to bet the VAST majority of police officers on TGO would do the exact same thing. I'm not threatening anybody, I'm just ready because of the higher likelihood of risk. The one time I've had to do that in the last 2 years, it was a police officer asking about the next door neighbors alarm, once I saw it was the police, I discreetly re-holstered my weapon and had a chat with them.

"The cops will sort it out and I guarantee the conflicting stories of a permit holder and a (most likely) criminal with a prior history will not be too hard to sift through."

I have sat on many juries and this is a very naive statement. The LEA has nothing to do with "sorting it out" this is the purview of the courts and attorneys. Two guys involved and two sets of weapons means a sure trip to the Grand Jury. My experience as a member of the Jury has shown me that defense lawyers tend to be more experienced and a lot smarter than prosecutors (especially junior PAs, which will most assuredly be assigned to this low a priority of a case.)

BTW there is no provision of TN law that allows you as a private citizen to detain an unarmed man at gunpoint. Forget "Citizen's Arrest" as it is so ambiguous that it rarely is used.

If he has a gun out and you have a gun out, it will most likely go down as a "gunfight" not SD and both parties will be prosecuted. Criminals know you can't hold them, it is one of the first lessons they learn from their fellow inmate "tutors" in their first time in the lockup. He is not likely to "drop down and surrender." He will either flee or fire. In either case there will be witnesses that will testify that you drew first (they will have seen you, not him) and will bring that out under examination. For sure, the smart thing is to be prepared, and as a combat vet I agree with you, but that isn't the way the law is written. If you draw to intimidate (impress) you are the bad guy when it goes to trial.

You try to be an LEO in your procedures and you will never carry a gun in TN again, sad fact but true.

Be sure your life is in danger, draw and fire. anything else is going to be a legal nightmare.

In your own home is the only area that you can do it right and have weapon at the ready, be thankful for "Castle Doctrine."

Edited September 7, 2010 by JayC

[JayC]

Do you know ANYTHING about TN law?! Holding a gun is not brandishing. There is NO ZERO ZILCH law that states a gun has to be carried in a holster or in any other manner. Brandishing, which is a pretty vague term in TN, is the same as threatening someone which is Assault. There has to be intent behind it.

+1 - Punisher84 hits the nail on the head...

[JayC]

I need to do some reading up on the law regarding what constitutes "brandishing" vs "carrying". Accepting that we are talking hypothetically about the limits of the law, not what's smart or common sense:

A) I'd never have thought I could walk around with a pistol in my hand, legally.

If I saw a person doing so, I would call 911 and definitely feel like he/she was up to no good.

I wonder how many LEO's would drive past a guy with a pistol in his hand and think "there's a law-abiding citizen out for a stroll" ?

There is no 'brandishing law' in TN, there is making a threat with a firearm... it requires intent, and behavior in such a way as to constitute fear... depending on the details, it's considered a type of assault under TN law (The exact type of assault depends on a number of factors).

Now, nobody here is suggesting running around with a pistol in the hand is a good idea... only that moving your weapon from your holster to your hand to have quicker access to it, is by itself not assault. You must do something else, such as point the weapon, say something, or act in some manner that is otherwise threatening.

Edited September 7, 2010 by JayC

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Police officers are under the same requirements under the law as citizens (let me be clear what I mean when I say this - the law either authroizes deadly force - and therefore the threat of deadly force - or it doesn't there is no middle ground). There are couple of extra circumstances where a police officer is allowed to threaten deadly force were a regular citizen is not. But, if holding a weapon at the low ready or to the side of one's leg hidden from view was considered a threat of deadly force, it would apply to police officers and citizens alike.

We've looked into this before, if holding a weapon in your hand is in and of itself is threatening serious bodily injury or death, then it would apply to both police officers and regular citizens equally.

I contend that merely holding your pistol at a low ready or pulled from the holster and hidden behind your back/leg is not a threat in and of itself... That some other action would have to be taken (spoken threat, or some other behavior) to rise to the level of a threat. Same goes for having your hand on your weapon, that action alone does not make it a threat.

I come home and my door front door is sitting wide open... it's perfectly reasonable to bring the weapon out of the holster and to a low ready even if I'm not in direct threat, because the situation clearly indicates a higher level of threat... A guy comes rushing out of my door isn't going to get me charged with threatening him in that case, nor is my neighbor across the street when I'm not facing or interacting with them either.

I'm not suggesting that we should all go running around with loaded pistols in your hands at the low ready, but there are times where pulling your weapon and having it more ready is a perfectly legal and valid tactic... for that reason some police departments train their officers to do this, and consider it a valid tactic... I'd have no problem finding examples of officers clearing leather but not pointing the weapon at a suspect that would clearly not have been justified shooting at that exact second.

Your logic seems sound, but you're really not taking the practical application of the law into effect.

There is an assumption when there us an armed conflict between an officer and a citizen: the officer is a good guy and the citizen is the (potential) bad guy. In my opinion, it is that assumption that gives them a little more leeway when they "clear leather" in what turns out to be a less-than-lethal confrontation. Officers are required to engage in these types of situations due to the requirements of their job.

In a citizen v citizen scenario, there is not always a good guy/bad guy assumption, especially if the encounter happens in a public space. A citizen drawing to the low ready will be seen as escalating the situation, especially if his opponent doesn't exactly fit the profile of a bg.

Let's look at a hypothetical: assume one of our open carry proponents goes for a walk and makes the mistake of handling his firearm in some way that startled one of his neighbors. One of the neighbors calls police and a "man with a gun call" goes out. When officers approach, they see the firearm, exit their vehicle and go to a low ready. After they determine that the gun is legal and no harm was intended, everyone goes on their way.

Now, same scenario, except the neighbor that felt threatened is a hcp holder. Feeling threatened, he draws low ready while dialing 911. Officers arrive to find two armed men, both with permits and clean records. If the neighbor is lucky, he'll only spend a few hours in custody while the facts are sorted out. If not, he'll be charged with brandishing.

A little different, huh?

Look at a different perspective: it's been mentioned above that someone might draw (but not point) their sidearm in a "bad neighborhood" or a "target rich environment.". I had a friend who use to draw his pistol and put it under his leg any time he drove through a bad part of Memphis. Ask a cop sometime if he could draw his weapon to low ready, simply because he had to walk through the hood.

[JayC]

Cognito, the law is clear, and training is well documented, in many departments weapons at the low ready, or at the back side of the leg hidden from view are not considered a threat of death and serious bodily injury in and of themselves. Neither is placing your hand on your firearm, nor disabling the retention function of your holster considered a threat in most departments. Under the law police officers don't have some special power to threaten death when using deadly force isn't authorized. Because they can't, they have legally found ways to be better prepared which are legal, because the act does not threaten death.

I'm not suggesting that doing so in every case is a good idea, or even in the majority of cases... but there are times that preparing yourself and your weapon is prudent even when you're not yet been threatened with death by another person. We can all think of some examples where only a fool will continue to keep a weapon holstered, even though they are not yet at a point to fire.

You hear a loud noise at night in your house and you go to investigate, until you discover a person has broken in, you aren't ready to fire, but clearly having the weapon in hand pointed in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger would be a better method than carrying in your holster.

Here is another personal example... me and a buddy were waiting at a PP boat dock after dark for a friend (teaches me to do favors for friends) late last fall... it was after dark, and the parking area was empty... all of a sudden a crappy 4 door sedan pulls up 2 parking places away the doors open up and two gangster looking youths exit and run into the dark in different directions... following behind was a SVU which pulled around and blocked us into parking spot... So, I have 2 questionable youths on foot, and a second vehicle blocking me in so I can't move away... I clearly was not yet in a justified self defense shooting yet... but I did remove my weapon from it's holster and positioned it so I could bring it up and on target much quicker. You'd suggest doing so was a bad idea?

Now, the SVU pulls away 30 seconds later, the 2 youths come back from what appeared to be a restroom break and the sedan drives off... I never threatened anybody... I was concerned that something bad might happen shortly and wanted to do my best to protect myself. (after getting myself in a bad situation - I quickly repositioned the vehicle to prevent us from being blocked in).

That incident could have turned out differently...

1. It could have been police officers performing some type of investigation... and here I would have had a loaded firearm in my lap when they approached the vehicle... I would have spent a couple of hours trying to explain to the officers what was going on.

2. It could have been a real threat that was about to kick off, and the second or two I saved by moving my handgun to my hand might have made all the difference in the world.

Holsters are the best way to generally carry your handgun, you should not point or otherwise threaten somebody with a handgun unless you're ready to shoot them... Those are good rules to live by, but there are times when using SA to prepared for a possible encounter, having that handgun in the hand before things kick off might mean the difference between going home to your family and being the latest victim on the nightly news. People have to use common sense but common sense says there are times that taking your gun from it's holster to have it more ready is the right thing to do, even if you haven't yet reached the level of a justified shooting.

Your logic seems sound, but you're really not taking the practical application of the law into effect.

There is an assumption when there us an armed conflict between an officer and a citizen: the officer is a good guy and the citizen is the (potential) bad guy. In my opinion, it is that assumption that gives them a little more leeway when they "clear leather" in what turns out to be a less-than-lethal confrontation. Officers are required to engage in these types of situations due to the requirements of their job.

In a citizen v citizen scenario, there is not always a good guy/bad guy assumption, especially if the encounter happens in a public space. A citizen drawing to the low ready will be seen as escalating the situation, especially if his opponent doesn't exactly fit the profile of a bg.

Let's look at a hypothetical: assume one of our open carry proponents goes for a walk and makes the mistake of handling his firearm in some way that startled one of his neighbors. One of the neighbors calls police and a "man with a gun call" goes out. When officers approach, they see the firearm, exit their vehicle and go to a low ready. After they determine that the gun is legal and no harm was intended, everyone goes on their way.

Now, same scenario, except the neighbor that felt threatened is a hcp holder. Feeling threatened, he draws low ready while dialing 911. Officers arrive to find two armed men, both with permits and clean records. If the neighbor is lucky, he'll only spend a few hours in custody while the facts are sorted out. If not, he'll be charged with brandishing.

A little different, huh?

Look at a different perspective: it's been mentioned above that someone might draw (but not point) their sidearm in a "bad neighborhood" or a "target rich environment.". I had a friend who use to draw his pistol and put it under his leg any time he drove through a bad part of Memphis. Ask a cop sometime if he could draw his weapon to low ready, simply because he had to walk through the hood.

[Guest trigem]

I read a lot on forums about people saying you should never unholster your weapon unless you plan to use it, I have seen this statement over and over and may not understand the thought processes behind the statements.

My weapon is pulled from the holster at least 10 times/day for bathroom duty, eating (GF says gun butt eats up her chairs), to the shower, going to the hospital ( i have a safe chained inside both vehicles for unusual circumstances) and to bed. I have carried daily a 1911 style pistol almost 50 years without an ND The benefits are: The muscle memory is developed on a daily basis and when you need it, it just jumps into your hand (just like your car keys) without thought leaving your mind free to make better determinations.

Case in point: Took wife out to dinner. When we returned to the car, someone started running toward the car from the left side of the building, his right hand was in his pocket and the left hand extended toward the door handle, my weapon was in my hand without thought (muscle memory). So IMHO, handle your weapon daily.bye the way, the fellow decides at the last minute that he had something else to do

You have carried for along time, what size 1911 do you carry and is it a steel version?

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

As I stated above, I'm not questioning your read of the law. But, to assume you will get the same application of the law as a cop is foolish at best.

As for your example......you drew down on some "children" going to the bathroom. Yes, based on the details given I suggest it was a bad idea. Did the youths run towards you, or threaten you in any way? Did the occupants of the vehicle make any threatening motions? If the kids had been white and wearing dockers, would you have drawn? Do you draw down any time a car blocks you in for more than a few seconds? Yes, it could have gone differently....... but it didn't. You were not in any danger at any point. SA? How do you rate yours in that situation?

Here's another question: What if the occupant of the car was also a HCP holder, and he saw your "hidden" gun? Should he have drawn down on you? By your logic, the answer is yes. What would have happened then?

The simple fact is that when you draw your weapon, it should be because you fear for your life and, unless things change immediately, you intend to use it. Your attacker should have the means, intent and proximity to cause you harm. And yes, you have to make that decision in a split second. Any doubt or concern about your ability to draw your weapon quickly should be met with additional practice and training, not with the decision to draw down at any potential threat.

Cognito, the law is clear, and training is well documented, in many departments weapons at the low ready, or at the back side of the leg hidden from view are not considered a threat of death and serious bodily injury in and of themselves. Neither is placing your hand on your firearm, nor disabling the retention function of your holster considered a threat in most departments. Under the law police officers don't have some special power to threaten death when using deadly force isn't authorized. Because they can't, they have legally found ways to be better prepared which are legal, because the act does not threaten death.

I'm not suggesting that doing so in every case is a good idea, or even in the majority of cases... but there are times that preparing yourself and your weapon is prudent even when you're not yet been threatened with death by another person. We can all think of some examples where only a fool will continue to keep a weapon holstered, even though they are not yet at a point to fire.

You hear a loud noise at night in your house and you go to investigate, until you discover a person has broken in, you aren't ready to fire, but clearly having the weapon in hand pointed in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger would be a better method than carrying in your holster.

Here is another personal example... me and a buddy were waiting at a PP boat dock after dark for a friend (teaches me to do favors for friends) late last fall... it was after dark, and the parking area was empty... all of a sudden a crappy 4 door sedan pulls up 2 parking places away the doors open up and two gangster looking youths exit and run into the dark in different directions... following behind was a SVU which pulled around and blocked us into parking spot... So, I have 2 questionable youths on foot, and a second vehicle blocking me in so I can't move away... I clearly was not yet in a justified self defense shooting yet... but I did remove my weapon from it's holster and positioned it so I could bring it up and on target much quicker. You'd suggest doing so was a bad idea?

Now, the SVU pulls away 30 seconds later, the 2 youths come back from what appeared to be a restroom break and the sedan drives off... I never threatened anybody... I was concerned that something bad might happen shortly and wanted to do my best to protect myself. (after getting myself in a bad situation - I quickly repositioned the vehicle to prevent us from being blocked in).

That incident could have turned out differently...

1. It could have been police officers performing some type of investigation... and here I would have had a loaded firearm in my lap when they approached the vehicle... I would have spent a couple of hours trying to explain to the officers what was going on.

2. It could have been a real threat that was about to kick off, and the second or two I saved by moving my handgun to my hand might have made all the difference in the world.

Holsters are the best way to generally carry your handgun, you should not point or otherwise threaten somebody with a handgun unless you're ready to shoot them... Those are good rules to live by, but there are times when using SA to prepared for a possible encounter, having that handgun in the hand before things kick off might mean the difference between going home to your family and being the latest victim on the nightly news. People have to use common sense but common sense says there are times that taking your gun from it's holster to have it more ready is the right thing to do, even if you haven't yet reached the level of a justified shooting.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

There is no 'brandishing law' in TN, there is making a threat with a firearm... it requires intent, and behavior in such a way as to constitute fear... .

Yep, and those things are subjective and up to interpretation.

The biggest mistake that legal novices make is to assume that laws and their interpretations are black and white.

[enfield]

You guys do what you feel is right, and bear the consequences of your actions.

I'll do the same.

[JayC]

I'm sorry Cognito, but you're just on the wrong side of this argument... We're just not seeing the charges and convictions you're talking about happening... There are TONS of case reported here where a HCP holder (Good Guy) pulls a weapon and isn't charged.. We just don't see the police taking your stance on when you'll be charged with 'brandishing' a weapon. We see people who clearly weren't covered under the law shooting people and not being charged. They didn't even charge Leonard with "brandishing" a weapon while walking down Main St in Belle Meade...

I'll be much more worried about it when I see the first case of an otherwise lawful citizen being charged with brandishing... yet doesn't point the weapon at anybody. I haven't seen a single case in the last 10 years... but who knows all of a sudden there may be tons of them popping up any day now.

As for my 'drawing down' on some 'children'... I never pointed the weapon at anybody, I never attempted to exit my vehicle... This is where you're just flat out wrong. Moving my firearm to a more accessible location was not a threat to anybody, it would just allow me to more quickly respond should that situation become more threatening. From training I know that unholstering a weapon from a car seat isn't easy, or fast, and therefore my training kicked in and I moved the firearm to a better position to possibly defend myself.

So to recap, 2 vehicles pull into an otherwise completely empty parking lot (75-100+ empty spaces) after dark... 2 16-20 year olds exit 1 vehicle at a run, each in different directions into the darkness on either side of my vehicle, and seconds later a second vehicle parks 2 feet off my back bumper blocking my vehicle from being able to move. The youths didn't run towards the public restroom, they ran into the dark. I suspect they were going to the rest room in the woods, truth is I have no clue what they were doing in the dark.

Yeah, my SA sucked big time... I wasn't as alert as I should have been, the area didn't seem dangerous to me, and I made some critical mistakes... for about 60 seconds, I thought for sure I was about to have a really bad day... I was in fear for sure, any REASONABLE person in that situation should be afraid, I allowed myself to get into a poorly defensible situation in a dark parking lot at night. So you're making the argument that I should have left my gun in a holster until a person came up to my window with a gun drawn? Making it virtually impossible for me to defend myself?

This incident ends up not going sideways for whatever reason... I'm glad it didn't... but I'm not going to follow some silly 'rule' made up by folks which isn't even a law, instead of giving myself the best chance to save my life? Sorry I'll pass on that 'logic' and 'training'.

BTW, if I park my car 2 feet off your back bumper at night in an otherwise empty parking lot and come running up to your car... I fully expect that you might take those actions as hostile on my part... Normal people don't behave like that... it wouldn't give you the right to shoot me, but it sure would give you the right to think something bad might happen.

We're just not seeing Stranger A and Stranger B both HCP holders shootouts... let alone Cops v HCP holder shootouts...

Just FYI, without saying a word the passenger in my vehicle, also unholstered his EDC and had it handy... and was calling out what he saw out his side mirror... I wasn't the only person in the vehicle who went from 0 to 100mph. If I was a bad guy, it would have been pretty hard to setup a better situation.

As I stated above, I'm not questioning your read of the law. But, to assume you will get the same application of the law as a cop is foolish at best.

As for your example......you drew down on some "children" going to the bathroom. Yes, based on the details given I suggest it was a bad idea. Did the youths run towards you, or threaten you in any way? Did the occupants of the vehicle make any threatening motions? If the kids had been white and wearing dockers, would you have drawn? Do you draw down any time a car blocks you in for more than a few seconds? Yes, it could have gone differently....... but it didn't. You were not in any danger at any point. SA? How do you rate yours in that situation?

Here's another question: What if the occupant of the car was also a HCP holder, and he saw your "hidden" gun? Should he have drawn down on you? By your logic, the answer is yes. What would have happened then?

The simple fact is that when you draw your weapon, it should be because you fear for your life and, unless things change immediately, you intend to use it. Your attacker should have the means, intent and proximity to cause you harm. And yes, you have to make that decision in a split second. Any doubt or concern about your ability to draw your weapon quickly should be met with additional practice and training, not with the decision to draw down at any potential threat.

[mikegideon]

You guys do what you feel is right, and bear the consequences of your actions.

I'll do the same.

That's where I am with this

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm sorry Cognito, but you're just on the wrong side of this argument... We're just not seeing the charges and convictions you're talking about happening... There are TONS of case reported here where a HCP holder (Good Guy) pulls a weapon and isn't charged.. We just don't see the police taking your stance on when you'll be charged with 'brandishing' a weapon. We see people who clearly weren't covered under the law shooting people and not being charged. They didn't even charge Leonard with "brandishing" a weapon while walking down Main St in Belle Meade...

I'll be much more worried about it when I see the first case of an otherwise lawful citizen being charged with brandishing... yet doesn't point the weapon at anybody. I haven't seen a single case in the last 10 years... but who knows all of a sudden there may be tons of them popping up any day now.

As for my 'drawing down' on some 'children'... I never pointed the weapon at anybody, I never attempted to exit my vehicle... This is where you're just flat out wrong. Moving my firearm to a more accessible location was not a threat to anybody, it would just allow me to more quickly respond should that situation become more threatening. From training I know that unholstering a weapon from a car seat isn't easy, or fast, and therefore my training kicked in and I moved the firearm to a better position to possibly defend myself.

So to recap, 2 vehicles pull into an otherwise completely empty parking lot (75-100+ empty spaces) after dark... 2 16-20 year olds exit 1 vehicle at a run, each in different directions into the darkness on either side of my vehicle, and seconds later a second vehicle parks 2 feet off my back bumper blocking my vehicle from being able to move. The youths didn't run towards the public restroom, they ran into the dark. I suspect they were going to the rest room in the woods, truth is I have no clue what they were doing in the dark.

Yeah, my SA sucked big time... I wasn't as alert as I should have been, the area didn't seem dangerous to me, and I made some critical mistakes... for about 60 seconds, I thought for sure I was about to have a really bad day... I was in fear for sure, any REASONABLE person in that situation should be afraid, I allowed myself to get into a poorly defensible situation in a dark parking lot at night. So you're making the argument that I should have left my gun in a holster until a person came up to my window with a gun drawn? Making it virtually impossible for me to defend myself?

This incident ends up not going sideways for whatever reason... I'm glad it didn't... but I'm not going to follow some silly 'rule' made up by folks which isn't even a law, instead of giving myself the best chance to save my life? Sorry I'll pass on that 'logic' and 'training'.

BTW, if I park my car 2 feet off your back bumper at night in an otherwise empty parking lot and come running up to your car... I fully expect that you might take those actions as hostile on my part... Normal people don't behave like that... it wouldn't give you the right to shoot me, but it sure would give you the right to think something bad might happen.

We're just not seeing Stranger A and Stranger B both HCP holders shootouts... let alone Cops v HCP holder shootouts...

Just FYI, without saying a word the passenger in my vehicle, also unholstered his EDC and had it handy... and was calling out what he saw out his side mirror... I wasn't the only person in the vehicle who went from 0 to 100mph. If I was a bad guy, it would have been pretty hard to setup a better situation.

Interesting that in the past seven years that I've lived in Nashville I can recall several articles where I recall an otherwise law abiding citizen was arrested for pulling a gun in a questionable situation. Not too long ago, a permit holder pulled a gun on a group on teens on the interstate. He wad arrested and claimed that the teens had threatened him. It wad probably about a year ago; I'm sure you could find it in the tennessean archives.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure you could find DOZENS of examples where one citizen pulls a firearm on another, gets arrested, them claims it was self defense. They may not all be permit holders, or perfect angels, but it happens all the time. You don't recognize them because you do what most people do: you assume the gun toting citizen was in the wrong because the situation didn't call for lethal force.

I find it curious that with all your training and expertise that you didn't.....at any point during your near death experience...... attempt to exit the vehicle or distance yourself from the threat. Being trapped in the car is the WORST place to be, since neither glass or sheet metal is bullet proof. You didn't attempt to drive off, or ram the car behind you. Did you turn on the ignition, or put the car in gear? Did you get out your flashlight and scan for your threat? The gun is not the first step in self defense..... it's the last. When you rule out the gun in all but real lethal encounters (not teenage bathroom breaks) you'll find that it makes you think about all sorts of less than lethal defense options.

[Will Carry]

Kimber Carrier,

You make a strong point. I will take your advice and start drawing more. Thanks, you may have saved a life.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm not one for quoting myself, but here are some examples of exactly what I'm talking about:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/45829-another-genius-pulls-gun-during-argument.html

This one is questionable, as the homeowner may have been protecting his property, but:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/44180-arrested-charged-defending-property.html

CCW holder in LV shot dead by police. Official report says he pointed his roscoe, witnesses say differently. Either way, someone saw his legally carried firearm, now he's dead.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/43877-las-vegas-permit-holder-shooting.html

Hmm, I'll bet this guy claims self defense. He was even sitting in his car and confronted....

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/41334-memphis-father-pulls-coach-his-kids-game.html

In this one, the "bad guy" and HCP holder pulled a gun after he claims (and other confirm) that he was threatened.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/25066-handgun-carry-permit-holder-pulls-gun-employee-arrested.html

Just a few examples found with a few minutes looking.

Interesting that in the past seven years that I've lived in Nashville I can recall several articles where I recall an otherwise law abiding citizen was arrested for pulling a gun in a questionable situation. Not too long ago, a permit holder pulled a gun on a group on teens on the interstate. He wad arrested and claimed that the teens had threatened him. It wad probably about a year ago; I'm sure you could find it in the tennessean archives.

As a matter of fact, I'm sure you could find DOZENS of examples where one citizen pulls a firearm on another, gets arrested, them claims it was self defense. They may not all be permit holders, or perfect angels, but it happens all the time. You don't recognize them because you do what most people do: you assume the gun toting citizen was in the wrong because the situation didn't call for lethal force.

I find it curious that with all your training and expertise that you didn't.....at any point during your near death experience...... attempt to exit the vehicle or distance yourself from the threat. Being trapped in the car is the WORST place to be, since neither glass or sheet metal is bullet proof. You didn't attempt to drive off, or ram the car behind you. Did you turn on the ignition, or put the car in gear? Did you get out your flashlight and scan for your threat? The gun is not the first step in self defense..... it's the last. When you rule out the gun in all but real lethal encounters (not teenage bathroom breaks) you'll find that it makes you think about all sorts of less than lethal defense options.

[Punisher84]

They both were hypothetical; I'm sorry I didn't speak in simpler terms for your benefit.

Let's talk about brandishing: it's really in the eyes of the beholder. Let's say (as a hypothetical) that our friend Punisher decided to go walking through a "bad" neighborhood carrying his piece in his hands. Assume a neighbor verbal confronts him about the weapon. Now, I don't know punisher in person, but I can guess from his demeanor here that his response would be less than friendly. For duscussions sake, let's assume he says "f u, lady, I hav a permit and I can carry anywhere I please. Mind your own business.". As he speaks, he waives his arms a bit. Neighbor call police and they respond to a " man with a gun" call. When the police interview the lady, she states that he " waived the gun" and that she felt threatened. Is it brandishing?

Ultimately, it's up to the courts to decide. In the right situation, I think it's quite likely that one could be found guilty of brandishing. How many months do you want to spend in jail or how much money do you want to spend on a defense simply to exercise your rights under the carry law..... For no good reason whatsoever.

Well there are 3 things that are very obvious from your posts.

1. You like to make assumptions.

2. You have very poor reading comprehension

3. You don't know what you're talking about.

I love how you "assumed" from my "demeanor" here that I walk around with a gun in my hand telling little old ladies to "F off". I rarely even OC. Thank you though for completely missing the point of the original topic and trying to argue with a bunch of people who are obviously much more knowledgeable about the laws of the state of TN than you.

[Punisher84]

I'll be darned...just read everything I could find about HCP laws and so far, like Punisher84 says, I found NOTHING that says it has to be in a holster.

I just had to "not see it" to believe it, I guess. Once you get past the hypotheticals and what-ifs, I don't think it sounds like a good idea, though.

To run with this for a second, I agree. Walking around with a gun in your hand as a method of carry is stupid. The entire point of my posts, and those who passed the 6th grade seemed to have gotten this including you, is that simply pulling your weapon from your holster is not brandishing as some would like to believe. The law does not support it, case law does not support it. The only thing that our new member Guy has proved by posting those cases, one which doesn't even apply to TN law, is that all of them had some sort of intent when they drew and POINTED their firearm.

[Punisher84]

Cognito, don't waste your time. It's like talking to a turnip. Except the turnip is more useful.

Well I'd ask if you were referring to me, but Lord knows you can't ever answer THAT question.

Thnaks for adding something useful to the debate though!

[Guest EB31]

Well I'd ask if you were referring to me, but Lord knows you can't ever answer THAT question.

Thnaks for adding something useful to the debate though!

Seeing how you were dead wrong about the age issue...and I wasn't even talking to or about you...but you clearly have such an insecure personality that you immediately flew off the handle thinking I was talking to you....I'll save you the sleepless nights concerning this. Yup...I'm talking about you. Sweet dreams skippy.

[Punisher84]

Seeing how you were dead wrong about the age issue...and I wasn't even talking to or about you...but you clearly have such an insecure personality that you immediately flew off the handle thinking I was talking to you....I'll save you the sleepless nights concerning this. Yup...I'm talking about you. Sweet dreams skippy.

Insecure? Not so much. Now, asking someone a question when they've made an accusation and them responding with smart ass replies instead of answering the question...I'd call that immature.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Punisher84