Unholstering your weapon

[mikegideon]

I completely agree with 1 & 2. If it turns into a shooting, it won't be cowboy style. If I see a thug coming my way in a dark alley, my gun will be in my hand and hidden. I won't be real concerned about what he might say in court.

[Punisher84]

"The cops will sort it out and I guarantee the conflicting stories of a permit holder and a (most likely) criminal with a prior history will not be too hard to sift through."

I have sat on many juries and this is a very naive statement. The LEA has nothing to do with "sorting it out" this is the purview of the courts and attorneys. Two guys involved and two sets of weapons means a sure trip to the Grand Jury. My experience as a member of the Jury has shown me that defense lawyers tend to be more experienced and a lot smarter than prosecutors (especially junior PAs, which will most assuredly be assigned to this low a priority of a case.)

BTW there is no provision of TN law that allows you as a private citizen to detain an unarmed man at gunpoint. Forget "Citizen's Arrest" as it is so ambiguous that it rarely is used.

If he has a gun out and you have a gun out, it will most likely go down as a "gunfight" not SD and both parties will be prosecuted. Criminals know you can't hold them, it is one of the first lessons they learn from their fellow inmate "tutors" in their first time in the lockup. He is not likely to "drop down and surrender." He will either flee or fire. In either case there will be witnesses that will testify that you drew first (they will have seen you, not him) and will bring that out under examination. For sure, the smart thing is to be prepared, and as a combat vet I agree with you, but that isn't the way the law is written. If you draw to intimidate (impress) you are the bad guy when it goes to trial.

You try to be an LEO in your procedures and you will never carry a gun in TN again, sad fact but true.

Be sure your life is in danger, draw and fire. anything else is going to be a legal nightmare.

In your own home is the only area that you can do it right and have weapon at the ready, be thankful for "Castle Doctrine."

I can't even begin to have the time to pick apart all the things wrong with that mess of a post so we'll just agree to disagree, because for what it's worth, I've lived through it and never saw a grand jury. Also, that "ambiguous citizen's arrest" law happens to be something I am well versed in because it allows me to complete the duties of my job in their entirety every night as a campus security officer.

Wow, just wow.

[Punisher84]

"I think there some confusion about the term unholstering. To me, it means freeing the gun so you can move it to where it needs to go. Just because I free it from it's restraints doesn't mean I'm going to wave it around, or point it at anybody. Just means I don't have to dig it out while somebody is shooting at me. "

The weapon doesn't have to pointed. A weapon in your hand and visibly out of its holster is being brandished if not fired. I don't write the laws I just have to obey them. Situational Awareness prevails her. Spend as much time learning how obtain cover and using distractions to buy time as you do shooting targets. The better your environmental situation (Cover, Concealment, Bug-Out options, etc.) the more time you buy to draw and fire (or even possibly avoid having to draw and fire. If you enter into the situation with a "Gunfighter" mentality, you are going to look like a "Gunslinger" in court. LEOs will have entered the scene after the incident and will probably only be able to confirm eyewitness accounts. You will have to convince the jury that you were right, and statistics are against you. Most of the jury (all of the juries I sat on) will be composed mostly of non-gun people at best and anti-gun people at worst. Same for the eye witnesses.The smartest step is not to draw to intimidate, but to get out of the line of sight/line of fire. I am sure there will be times that it goes down too fast to do that, but it is still the best primary defense to keep in mind.

Wyatt Earp (very experienced!) said it best: "The best gunfight is the one you avoid."

Do you know ANYTHING about TN law?! Holding a gun is not brandishing. There is NO ZERO ZILCH law that states a gun has to be carried in a holster or in any other manner. Brandishing, which is a pretty vague term in TN, is the same as threatening someone which is Assault. There has to be intent behind it.

[mikegideon]

I can't even begin to have the time to pick apart all the things wrong with that mess of a post so we'll just agree to disagree, because for what it's worth, I've lived through it and never saw a grand jury. Also, that "ambiguous citizen's arrest" law happens to be something I am well versed in because it allows me to complete the duties of my job in their entirety every night as a campus security officer.

Wow, just wow.

Are you sayin' you've bumped into some real live thugs in your life?

[Guest Glock23ForMe]

Wow.

This phrase is meant to convey two things:

1). Only draw your weapon when you believe your life is in danger and you think it is highly likely you'll have to use it.

2). Only draw a weapon if you have the mindset to use lethal force. Don't draw it to scare anyone, and don't draw it as intimidation. Once that gun comes out, be prepared to end your opponents life.

These types of encounters are very fluid. Your opponent may flee or give up. You have to recognize that change immediately and change your tactics. It's also wise to point out that many bgs aren't afraid of guns. Some of these guys have spent their lives living in fear and have been fired at many times. Don't expect your opponent to wet his pants just because you unstrap your Roscoe.

I agree with this...

[Punisher84]

Are you sayin' you've bumped into some real live thugs in your life?

Oh 1 or 2 I reckon.

Of course they may have just been "mis-directed individuals in need of compassion and understanding".

[mikegideon]

Oh 1 or 2 I reckon.

Of course they may have just been "mis-directed individuals in need of compassion and understanding".

But, you can teach them. Explain that they are brandishing their weapon, and that they're legally bound to give you some time to dig your pistol out of your britches.

[Punisher84]

But, you can teach them. Explain that they are brandishing their weapon, and that they're legally bound to give you some time to dig your pistol out of your britches.

I'll just quote TCA at them. "STOP CRIMINAL! You are in violation of TN Code Annotated 39-13-101 and are committing Assault! I am in fear for my life! Cease and desist now!"

[mikegideon]

I'll just quote TCA at them. "STOP CRIMINAL! You are in violation of TN Code Annotated 39-13-101 and are committing Assault! I am in fear for my life! Cease and desist now!"

You're gonna look GOOD on all those secret video cameras when you show up in court

[Punisher84]

You're gonna look GOOD on all those secret video cameras when you show up in court

Should I make sure my carry banner is showing?

[mikegideon]

Should I make sure my carry banner is showing?

Not THAT's brandishing

[molonlabetn]

If we're just talking about holding your pistol at your side because you want to have it in your hand... there's nothing wrong with that. But that's different than being already engaged in a confrontation or being approached by someone... because drawing then would certainly escalate it.

But if you're just in a bad neighborhood or something and there is no specific threat, you can carry your gun however you like (in your hand, whatever) - that's a no brainer. Having your gun accessible and/or visible before a threat appears is one advantage of open-carry, as well.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

So.....you just whip out your pistol anytime you're in a bad neighborhood?? Really?

Guys, let's use a little common sense, please. Think about it this way: what would you do if you looked down the street and saw a man walking towards you with a pistol in his hand? C

d

If we're just talking about holding your pistol at your side because you want to have it in your hand... there's nothing wrong with that. But that's different than being already engaged in a confrontation or being approached by someone... because drawing then would certainly escalate it.

But if you're just in a bad neighborhood or something and there is no specific threat, you can carry your gun however you like (in your hand, whatever) - that's a no brainer. Having your gun accessible and/or visible before a threat appears is one advantage of open-carry, as well.

[Punisher84]

So.....you just whip out your pistol anytime you're in a bad neighborhood?? Really?

Guys, let's use a little common sense, please. Think about it this way: what would you do if you looked down the street and saw a man walking towards you with a pistol in his hand? C

d

Use some common sense yourself and don't take everything at face value. What you're saying is not even what he said. TN law does NOT state ANYWHERE how a handgun can be carried if you have a permit.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Use some common sense yourself and don't take everything at face value. What you're saying is not even what he said. TN law does NOT state ANYWHERE how a handgun can be carried if you have a permit.

Take your own advice.....my intent was to ask a hypothetical question.

I understand what the law says and doesn't say. Hence my call for a little common sense. Just because you CAN walk around holding a loaded pistol doesn't mean you SHOULD.

[mikegideon]

I don't carry a pistol to use it as a negotiating tool. I carry it to protect myself. If you're serious about that, you're better off hiding everything from your opponent except the muzzle flash. Every situation is different. If I feel threatened by a situation that may require force, I am going to get my weapon under my control ASAP. If it turns out to be nothing, I'll put it back up.

[Punisher84]

Take your own advice.....my intent was to ask a hypothetical question.

I understand what the law says and doesn't say. Hence my call for a little common sense. Just because you CAN walk around holding a loaded pistol doesn't mean you SHOULD.

No, the second question was a hypothetical. The first was either you trying to be a smart ass or showing that you have poor reading comprehension skills. Molon didn't advocate carrying one way or the other, he simply stated a fact of law. You chose to run with it so don't try to back pedal now. I'm quoting for reference below.

So.....you just whip out your pistol anytime you're in a bad neighborhood?? Really?

Guys, let's use a little common sense, please. Think about it this way: what would you do if you looked down the street and saw a man walking towards you with a pistol in his hand? C

d

[Guest EB31]

Cognito, don't waste your time. It's like talking to a turnip. Except the turnip is more useful.

[BigK]

I need to do some reading up on the law regarding what constitutes "brandishing" vs "carrying". Accepting that we are talking hypothetically about the limits of the law, not what's smart or common sense:

A) I'd never have thought I could walk around with a pistol in my hand, legally.

If I saw a person doing so, I would call 911 and definitely feel like he/she was up to no good.

I wonder how many LEO's would drive past a guy with a pistol in his hand and think "there's a law-abiding citizen out for a stroll" ?

[Guest EB31]

If we're just talking about holding your pistol at your side because you want to have it in your hand... there's nothing wrong with that. But that's different than being already engaged in a confrontation or being approached by someone... because drawing then would certainly escalate it.

But if you're just in a bad neighborhood or something and there is no specific threat, you can carry your gun however you like (in your hand, whatever) - that's a no brainer. Having your gun accessible and/or visible before a threat appears is one advantage of open-carry, as well.

I agree heavily with your last line. There are some advantages to OC. There's a time and place for everything.

[Guest EB31]

I need to do some reading up on the law regarding what constitutes "brandishing" vs "carrying". Accepting that we are talking hypothetically about the limits of the law, not what's smart or common sense:

A) I'd never have thought I could walk around with a pistol in my hand, legally.

If I saw a person doing so, I would call 911 and definitely feel like he/she was up to no good.

I wonder how many LEO's would drive past a guy with a pistol in his hand and think "there's a law-abiding citizen out for a stroll" ?

Very true. I could see someone walking their own property with gun on hand...if it were a case where they heard a suspicious noise and were out checking their own private property.

If I saw anyone...even if I knew you were a permit holder....strolling down Main st. with your weapon unholstered and in your had just for the hell of it? Yea, even I'm dialing 911 and reported a suspicious man with a gun.

Anyone who would do that is just an idiot. And idiots don't need to have carry permits.

[mikegideon]

Cognito, don't waste your time. It's like talking to a turnip. Except the turnip is more useful.

Than what? This post? We all have our reasons for believing the things we believe. We all have different experiences.

[mikegideon]

Very true. I could see someone walking their own property with gun on hand...if it were a case where they heard a suspicious noise and were out checking their own private property.

If I saw anyone...even if I knew you were a permit holder....strolling down Main st. with your weapon unholstered and in your had just for the hell of it? Yea, even I'm dialing 911 and reported a suspicious man with a gun.

Anyone who would do that is just an idiot. And idiots don't need to have carry permits.

correct

[BigK]

I'll be darned...just read everything I could find about HCP laws and so far, like Punisher84 says, I found NOTHING that says it has to be in a holster.

I just had to "not see it" to believe it, I guess. Once you get past the hypotheticals and what-ifs, I don't think it sounds like a good idea, though.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

No, the second question was a hypothetical. The first was either you trying to be a smart ass or showing that you have poor reading comprehension skills. Molon didn't advocate carrying one way or the other, he simply stated a fact of law. You chose to run with it so don't try to back pedal now. I'm quoting for reference below.

They both were hypothetical; I'm sorry I didn't speak in simpler terms for your benefit.

Let's talk about brandishing: it's really in the eyes of the beholder. Let's say (as a hypothetical) that our friend Punisher decided to go walking through a "bad" neighborhood carrying his piece in his hands. Assume a neighbor verbal confronts him about the weapon. Now, I don't know punisher in person, but I can guess from his demeanor here that his response would be less than friendly. For duscussions sake, let's assume he says "f u, lady, I hav a permit and I can carry anywhere I please. Mind your own business.". As he speaks, he waives his arms a bit. Neighbor call police and they respond to a " man with a gun" call. When the police interview the lady, she states that he " waived the gun" and that she felt threatened. Is it brandishing?

Ultimately, it's up to the courts to decide. In the right situation, I think it's quite likely that one could be found guilty of brandishing. How many months do you want to spend in jail or how much money do you want to spend on a defense simply to exercise your rights under the carry law..... For no good reason whatsoever.