Question for the 1911 owners

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

He's right. You won't find many talking about doing it on the super uber tacticool gun boards, but it did happen...a lot!

Lots of cops used to carry that way, too, back "in the day". John Q public felt it was a safer way for them to carry after years of seeing them carry DA revolvers with hammers down.

It just that I never seen it discussed, or heard it discussed by any pistol experts as a logical means of carry. Even if " alot of cops" carried that way at one point, you certainly don't see ANYONE advising that carry condition today.

To get a 1911 to a half cock position, you have to pull the trigger on a loaded weapon and catch the hammer while releasing the trigger at the same time. If someone is worried about their ability to manipulate a safety, this certainly does not seem like a reasonable alternative.

[Warbird]

seems to be a consensus here.

But one thing that entered my mind. I could swear I read somehwere (other than an internet message board )that if a 1911 hammer was on half cock, and it dropped, it would not drop with enough force to fire the round.

I do not have the data in front of me, but the testing I have seen showed that 40% or 4 out of 10 times the round did indeed go off.

[timcalhoun]

Condition 2 is - one in the chamber hammer the whole way down (half cock was never part of the scenario).

Half cock on a 1911 is not like a half cock SAFETY on many popular hammer guns (winchesters etc..) it's not a safety in that respect and should not be used as one.

Will a 1911 go bang if the hammer falls from half cock? Maybe, depending on mainspring weight (most are at 21-23lbs), hammer mass, and primer hardness (federal primers are much softer than most).

Can you pull the trigger at half cock? Maybe........I have seen both, and it depends on the hammer being used and the depth of the notch, but many will fall when their triggers are pulled.

Series 80 and Kimber series II mostly address a perception problem. I don't think it was because people were "shooting themselves". People that are ignorant of the way a 1911 works pause at carrying in condition 1 and these systems help sell guns by overcoming that fear. The only major thing both designs helped as far a safety was the AD when dropping the gun on its muzzle. This can make the firing pin go forward resulting in a bang. But of course the round will strike the ground if this happens, but you can get fragged.

I have no problem with condition 2, it's a free country and you should do what you want. The only problem I had with the whole idea was the half cock thing. If you are using it as a safety you are just mistaken, but I understand why many people think it is a safety. I too thought the same (many moons ago) since I grew up hunting with a model 94.

FWIW

[strickj]

It just that I never seen it discussed, or heard it discussed by any pistol experts as a logical means of carry. Even if " alot of cops" carried that way at one point, you certainly don't see ANYONE advising that carry condition today.

To get a 1911 to a half cock position, you have to pull the trigger on a loaded weapon and catch the hammer while releasing the trigger at the same time. If someone is worried about their ability to manipulate a safety, this certainly does not seem like a reasonable alternative.

I'm not advocating doing it either. Just stating a lot of folks did it.

People also had to let the hammer down on revolvers, rifles, and shotguns too yanno...

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

I'm not advocating doing it either. Just stating a lot of folks did it.

People also had to let the hammer down on revolvers, rifles, and shotguns too yanno...

Never heard of a revolver that cocked itself.......

[strickj]

Never heard of a revolver that cocked itself.......

You have got to be kidding me!

Of coarse a revolver doesn't cock itself. Neither does a lot of the rifles and shotguns.

Point is, if the gun was cocked, it had to be de-cocked.

[Mike.357]

I do not have the data in front of me, but the testing I have seen showed that 40% or 4 out of 10 times the round did indeed go off.

if you have that data post it. I am probably confused about my info. old age yanno

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

You have got to be kidding me!

Of coarse a revolver doesn't cock itself. Neither does a lot of the rifles and shotguns.

Point is, if the gun was cocked, it had to be de-cocked.

The point is that a revolver can be loaded and have a round in the chamber WITHOUT being cocked. There is no need to deco k a revolver unless you intentionally cock it for no good reason To load a round in the chamber of the 1911 requires cocking the firearm. It has to be put on safety or decocked to be carried safely.

[strickj]

The point is that a revolver can be loaded and have a round in the chamber WITHOUT being cocked. There is no need to deco k a revolver unless you intentionally cock it for no good reason To load a round in the chamber of the 1911 requires cocking the firearm. It has to be put on safety or decocked to be carried safely.

Look, I am not going to argue this with you.

I am not going to advocate carrying a 1911 at half cock.

All I am saying here is hammered guns get de-cocked.Always have, always will. They have been safely decocked since way before the 1911 ever came along and will continue long after their popularity goes away.

Now, go argue with someone else

[leroy]

Condition 2 is - one in the chamber hammer the whole way down (half cock was never part of the scenario).

Half cock on a 1911 is not like a half cock SAFETY on many popular hammer guns (winchesters etc..) it's not a safety in that respect and should not be used as one.

Will a 1911 go bang if the hammer falls from half cock? Maybe, depending on mainspring weight (most are at 21-23lbs), hammer mass, and primer hardness (federal primers are much softer than most).

Can you pull the trigger at half cock? Maybe........I have seen both, and it depends on the hammer being used and the depth of the notch, but many will fall when their triggers are pulled.

Series 80 and Kimber series II mostly address a perception problem. I don't think it was because people were "shooting themselves". People that are ignorant of the way a 1911 works pause at carrying in condition 1 and these systems help sell guns by overcoming that fear. The only major thing both designs helped as far a safety was the AD when dropping the gun on its muzzle. This can make the firing pin go forward resulting in a bang. But of course the round will strike the ground if this happens, but you can get fragged.

I have no problem with condition 2, it's a free country and you should do what you want. The only problem I had with the whole idea was the half cock thing. If you are using it as a safety you are just mistaken, but I understand why many people think it is a safety. I too thought the same (many moons ago) since I grew up hunting with a model 94.

FWIW

Lifted this from the Colt website:

....The most significant event of 1999 was the arrival of Lt. Gen. William M. Keys USMC (Ret.) as President and Chief Executive Officer. A decorated combat veteran of the Vietnam War and Operation Desert Storm, Gen. Keys took the helm of the company at a critical time. Dozens of municipalities around the country had brought lawsuits against Colt and other leading handgun manufacturers, distributors and dealers and the cost of defending the litigation threatened to bring the company and the other manufacturers to their knees.--....

Link here: Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC.

Read this: House Passes Bill Protecting Gun Makers from Lawsuits

This is lifted from that paragon of information. Wikipedia:

....Agreement of 2000

In March 2000 Smith & Wesson signed an agreement with the Clinton Administration in order to avoid lawsuits.[4] The company agreed to numerous safety and design standards, as well as limits on the sale and distribution of their products. Gun clubs and gun rights groups responded to this agreement by initiating large-scale boycotts of Smith & Wesson by refusing to buy their new products and flooding the firearms market with used S&W guns, cutting into their market share. [5][6] This agreement signed by Tomkins PLC ended with the sale of Smith and Wesson to the Saf-T-Hammer Corporation. The new company (Smith and Wesson Holding Corporation), which publicly renounced the agreement, was received positively by the firearms community.[7]...

Link here: Smith & Wesson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Ya see; it is in large part about the litigation. We live in a "no fault" society in large part. Guns are inherently dangerous and someone (...other than the smuck operating it ---- after all, he probably has no money; the gun manufacturers do, however...) must, therefore, be responsible for any damages or deaths resulting from the use of guns (...at least, it was that way for a while...). Then the adults stepped in with the tort legislation.

Leroy

Edited September 8, 2010 by leroy
speelling!!

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Look, I am not going to argue this with you.

I am not going to advocate carrying a 1911 at half cock.

All I am saying here is hammered guns get de-cocked.Always have, always will. They have been safely decocked since way before the 1911 ever came along and will continue long after their popularity goes away.

Now, go argue with someone else

Hmm, I haven't decocked any weapon on a live round in 25 years. Wonder what I'm doing wrong......

[timcalhoun]

Lifted this from the Colt website:

Link here: Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC.

Read this: House Passes Bill Protecting Gun Makers from Lawsuits

This is lifted from that paragon of information. Wikipedia:

Link here: Smith & Wesson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Ya see; it is in large part about the litigation. We live in a "no fault" society in large part. Guns are inherently dangerous and someone (...other than the smuck operating it ---- after all, he probably has no money; the gun manufacturers do, however...) must, therefore, be responsible for any damages or deaths resulting from the use of guns (...at least, it was that way for a while...). Then the adults stepped in with the tort legislation.

Leroy

No, I remember all of that and I think it was just politics. A ton of 1911 manufacturers do not put any FP safeties in at all. Even Kimber has models that does not include the FP safeties. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think none of these have FP safeties. And this is just what I remember off the top of my head.

Springfield

STI

Dan Wesson

Ed Brown

Les Baer

Remington

Wilson

Heck even Colt still sells the series 70

So, I just think it was not about safety as much as it was about perception and in your example politics. It's an incredibly safe gun the way John designed it.

[Guest spoolie]

Just like I've told you before Allen....

[mikegideon]

[Guest 270win]

Yes, I have the safety engaged because I have a round chambered, Cocked and Locked. A 1911 is pretty useless otherwise.

You cannot engage the safety on a 1911 that is not cocked.

You press down on the safety as you bring the pistol up to the target with your finger on the frame of the pistol. I keep my thumb on the safety when I fire, ride the safety I think is what some people call it. The safety does not slow you down. It is no different than clicking a safety off when hunting in the woods before shooting an animal or clicking a safety off and shooting clays.

Get a good 22 pistol like a Ruger Mark I, II, or III or a Browning Buck Mark that you have to press down for fire on the safety and up for safe and shoot that thing a lot. Shoot some cans and maybe squirrels and rabbits. You'll see that the safety won't slow you down when you get the hang of it.

[leroy]

.....No, I remember all of that and I think it was just politics. A ton of 1911 manufacturers do not put any FP safeties in at all. Even Kimber has models that does not include the FP safeties. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think none of these have FP safeties. And this is just what I remember off the top of my head.

Springfield

STI

Dan Wesson

Ed Brown

Les Baer

Remington

Wilson

Heck even Colt still sells the series 70

So, I just think it was not about safety as much as it was about perception and in your example politics. It's an incredibly safe gun the way John designed it.

Its politics (...and nusiance...) for us. Its dollars for companies who have to fight litigation. My guess is that the legislation to limit tort lawsuits stopped the need for "enhansed" safety features and the need for corporations to "refine the design" to the n'th degree.

Leroy

[Il Duce]

Just like I've told you before Allen....

that i shouldnt have wasted my time and money before on a plastic gun?

[gregintenn]

leroy, I know how a 1911 works. To load a round in the chamber, and then to put the hammer on half cock, one has to pull the trigger on a live round while hopefully holding the hammer with the thumb. This is at best a foolish and dangerous practice. If there is another way to accomplish this, I'm all ears.

[leroy]

....leroy, I know how a 1911 works. To load a round in the chamber, and then to put the hammer on half cock, one has to pull the trigger on a live round while hopefully holding the hammer with the thumb. This is at best a foolish and dangerous practice. If there is another way to accomplish this, I'm all ears.....

Greg:______________

I explained how to do all that in post #50. It's ok for you to think it's a "foolish practice". It aint ok for you to lecture me (...or anyone else, for that matter...) about a damn thing, question credentials (...mine or anyone else's...), or try to call me (...or them...) down for being foolish. As near as i can tell, no one elected you the TGO Range Safety Officer; we aint even got a range. I simply explained how the "cock on draw" and "hammer down carry" method works. More than that, there is concrete proof that this method works because i'm still here, not shot, didn't shoot anyone else, didn't destroy any property, ect.; and i'm pretty old.

It looks to me like you have have been working overtime in an overbearing attempt to show us just how smart you are; which, by the way, aint working too well on me. I added to the conversation in an attempt to explain why some folks carry a 1911 with the hammer down on on half cock with a round in the spout. If you dont like that method of carry dont do it. Dont presume to lecture me or anyone else about what's ok and what aint ok; that aint your job. Remember, you started this childish spitting contest; I didnt. You might consider taking a Dale Carnege course to clean up them bad manners before someone really takes offense to your tendency toward bad manners and childish pronouncements.

I would refrain from using phrases like "....if you have any engineering ability..." and "...foolish and dangerous...." in my conversations and writings if i wuz you. You'll probably make more friends that way; not to mention not alienating the ones you may have already made.

Leroy

Edited September 8, 2010 by leroy

[willis68]

Look,

I am not trying to lecture anyone here but I have spent a bunch of money training under Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch he was a student of Col Jeff Cooper you all can do as you wish, after all it is your life, but here are Col Jeff Coopers thoughts on 1911 carry conditions:

jeff cooper's five facts of 1911 life: John Browning’s revolutionary semiautomatic pistol was still being used like a Colt six-shooter until Jeff Cooper came along.

[gregintenn]

Greg:______________

I explained how to do all that in post #50. It's ok for you to think it's a "foolish practice". It aint ok for you to lecture me (...or anyone else, for that matter...) about a damn thing, question credentials (...mine or anyone else's...), or try to call me (...or them...) down for being foolish. As near as i can tell, no one elected you the TGO Range Safety Officer; we aint even got a range. I simply explained how the "cock on draw" and "hammer down carry" method works. More than that, there is concrete proof that this method works because i'm still here, not shot, didn't shoot anyone else, didn't destroy any property, ect.; and i'm pretty old.

It looks to me like you have have been working overtime in an overbearing attempt to show us just how smart you are; which, by the way, aint working too well on me. I added to the conversation in an attempt to explain why some folks carry a 1911 with the hammer down on on half cock with a round in the spout. If you dont like that method of carry dont do it. Dont presume to lecture me or anyone else about what's ok and what aint ok; that aint your job. Remember, you started this childish spitting contest; I didnt. You might consider taking a Dale Carnege course to clean up them bad manners before someone really takes offense to your tendency toward bad manners and childish pronouncements.

I would refrain from using phrases like "....if you have any engineering ability..." and "...foolish and dangerous...." in my conversations and writings if i wuz you. You'll probably make more friends that way; not to mention not alienating the ones you may have already made.

Leroy

Leroy, I didn't mean to step on your toes, but if you gey bent out of shape that easily, I'll try to refrain from interacting with you any more. Everyone on this board doesn't have the knowledge and experience with firearms that you have. Some don't know how a 1911 works. We can dispute this to no end, and neither of us will gain anything, nor change each other's mind. I don't care how you carry your handgun, but I'd prefer to not be near you when you are "gently" and "carefully" manipulating the hammer of a 1911 over a live round in the chamber. I personally don't care that much for the 1911, opting for the simplicity in operation of a revolver. I can agree with you that the thumb safety; excepting the ambi safeties, is quite a pain for a lefty.

[Guest Plainsman]

Look,

I am not trying to lecture anyone here but I have spent a bunch of money training under Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch he was a student of Col Jeff Cooper you all can do as you wish, after all it is your life, but here are Col Jeff Coopers thoughts on 1911 carry conditions:

jeff cooper's five facts of 1911 life: John Browning’s revolutionary semiautomatic pistol was still being used like a Colt six-shooter until Jeff Cooper came along.

Thats a good read. Jeff Cooper was awesome.

[tnhawk]

:popcorn:Colt lists three carrying modes in their safety and instruction manual. None of them is half cocked.

[Desert Rat]

WOW! and all these years I thought there were only two ways to carry a 1911. Empty or Cocked and Locked.

[daddyo]

I do believe I'll take Jeff Cooper's word over Lee Roy's and keep carrying my 1911 in condition one.