Question for the 1911 owners

[timcalhoun]

Do not carry it "half cocked" and I would seriously consider having the gun looked at if you have done it for any amount of time because you have probably damaged the sear.

Dolomite

The hammer/sear geometry should be the same at half cock or full. So having it at half cock will not hurt the sear. It's just another notch on the hammer that the sear catches.

But, as in my previous statement, it is a bad idea to carry that way. Most manufacturers pay only as much attention to the first notch as to make sure they hear a click. So as for it being stable, well that would be suspect. Then when you compound it with a 21lb mainspring and the fact that many times the trigger can still make the hammer fall at "half cock" it's a really bad idea.

Again, when the thumb safety is engaged it not only prevents the sear from moving but also makes it impossible for the hammer to come all the way forward even if the sear was gone.

[tnhawk]

Condition 1, Cocked and locked what the pistol was designed for

+1 No reason to carry it anyother way.

[Lumber_Jack]

The hammer/sear geometry should be the same at half cock or full. So having it at half cock will not hurt the sear. It's just another notch on the hammer that the sear catches.

But, as in my previous statement, it is a bad idea to carry that way. Most manufacturers pay only as much attention to the first notch as to make sure they hear a click. So as for it being stable, well that would be suspect. Then when you compound it with a 21lb mainspring and the fact that many times the trigger can still make the hammer fall at "half cock" it's a really bad idea.

Again, when the thumb safety is engaged it not only prevents the sear from moving but also makes it impossible for the hammer to come all the way forward even if the sear was gone.

If that doesn't make sense, your thinking about it too much

[daddyo]

Do you carry with the safety on or off?

Are you asking this with the assumption that there is one in the chamber either way? If so:

One in the pipe; safety off - NOTHING good will come of this.

One in the pipe; safety on - the ONLY way to carry a 1911.

[Chucktshoes]

Condition 1, Cocked and locked what the pistol was designed for

This.

[gregintenn]

Cocked and Locked! The way God and John Browning intended.

[leroy]

...Originally Posted by dmayes2

Safety off, but half cocked. I can cock the hammer full on the draw. Thats safety enough for me. ...

.....Is this even safe? I had just been talking to a couple of guys yesterday, about a buddy of theirs that didn't realize he had it half cocked and shot himself and the dog he was petting when he bumped the hammer... (both survived, though his finger is no longer straight...)....

The "half cock" with "full cock on draw" carry is an old time method that lots of guys (...including me...) used to use. It will work (...just as safe and well as "cocked and locked"; it has just fell out of favor due to the passing of the old guys...). It is a throwback to the "old days" from the single action guys (... no one thinks about this; but there were lots of folks that carried the old colt single action armies right up thru the sixties...). It works very well (...especially with the spur hammer...) and is just as safe as "cocked and locked" with combat type 1911's. We can quibble about how fast it is vs "cocked and locked"; but it is just another way to get the job done with a 1911.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[VERO1]

Another cocked and locked always.

[willis68]

The "half cock" with "full cock on draw" carry is an old time method that lots of guys (...including me...) used to use. It will work (...just as safe and well as "cocked and locked"; it has just fell out of favor due to the passing of the old guys...). It is a throwback to the "old days" from the single action guys (... no one thinks about this; but there were lots of folks that carried the old colt single action armies right up thru the sixties...). It works very well (...especially with the spur hammer...) and is just as safe as "cocked and locked" with combat type 1911's. We can quibble about how fast it is vs "cocked and locked"; but it is just another way to get the job done with a 1911.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Leroy

Leroy,

With all do respect, we as a society are a heck of a lot safer now than we were decades ago. Please explain to me what you think is safe about having a live round in the chamber and 1/2 cocking the trigger? The potential of an accidental discharge makes this NOT SAFE. Also god forbid any of us have to use our 1911 in self defense, fumbling for the trigger to cock it before getting a shot off that could save your life also keeps this from being safe.

When people ask for advice on how to handle or carry a weapon we should teach them the safe way of doing things, not the way it use to be done before people knew any better

Edited September 7, 2010 by willis68

[timcalhoun]

Leroy,

With all do respect, we as a society are a heck of a lot more safer now than we were decades ago. Please explain to me what you think is safe about having a live round in the chamber and 1/2 cocking the trigger? The potential of an accidental discharge makes this NOT SAFE. Also god forbid any of us have to use our 1911 in self defense, fumbling for the trigger to cock it before getting a shot off that could save your life also keeps this from being safe.

When people ask for advice on how to handle or carry a weapon we should teach them the safe way of doing things, not the way it use to be done before people knew any better

[daddyo]

The "half cock" with "full cock on draw" carry is an old time method that lots of guys (...including me...) used to use. It will work (...just as safe and well as "cocked and locked"; it has just fell out of favor due to the passing of the old guys...). It is a throwback to the "old days" from the single action guys (... no one thinks about this; but there were lots of folks that carried the old colt single action armies right up thru the sixties...). It works very well (...especially with the spur hammer...) and is just as safe as "cocked and locked" with combat type 1911's. We can quibble about how fast it is vs "cocked and locked"; but it is just another way to get the job done with a 1911.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Leroy

SAA is NOT a 1911. What you are talking about is an extremely dangerous way to carry a SA semi-auto.

Cocked and locked or leave it at home.

[Guest Guy N. Cognito]

Wow.

There are lots of "old guys" left. Many of them favor the 1911. I've never, NEVER seen any writings from these old timer advocating a "half cock" carry for the 1911. It's one of the most documented handguns still in use, so one would think that these half-cock advocates you claim exist would be easier to find.

If you have any written support for the half cock method, I'd certainly like to see it.

The "half cock" with "full cock on draw" carry is an old time method that lots of guys (...including me...) used to use. It will work (...just as safe and well as "cocked and locked"; it has just fell out of favor due to the passing of the old guys...). It is a throwback to the "old days" from the single action guys (... no one thinks about this; but there were lots of folks that carried the old colt single action armies right up thru the sixties...). It works very well (...especially with the spur hammer...) and is just as safe as "cocked and locked" with combat type 1911's. We can quibble about how fast it is vs "cocked and locked"; but it is just another way to get the job done with a 1911.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Leroy

[timcalhoun]

If you want to carry condition 2 use one of these. Complete nonsense IMO but a safer way for sure.

Cylinder & Slide's Informational Videos.

[strickj]

Wow.

There are lots of "old guys" left. Many of them favor the 1911. I've never, NEVER seen any writings from these old timer advocating a "half cock" carry for the 1911. It's one of the most documented handguns still in use, so one would think that these half-cock advocates you claim exist would be easier to find.

If you have any written support for the half cock method, I'd certainly like to see it.

He's right. You won't find many talking about doing it on the super uber tacticool gun boards, but it did happen...a lot!

Lots of cops used to carry that way, too, back "in the day". John Q public felt it was a safer way for them to carry after years of seeing them carry DA revolvers with hammers down.

[leroy]

Leroy,

With all do respect, we as a society are a heck of a lot safer now than we were decades ago. Please explain to me what you think is safe about having a live round in the chamber and 1/2 cocking the trigger? The potential of an accidental discharge makes this NOT SAFE. Also god forbid any of us have to use our 1911 in self defense, fumbling for the trigger to cock it before getting a shot off that could save your life also keeps this from being safe.

When people ask for advice on how to handle or carry a weapon we should teach them the safe way of doing things, not the way it use to be done before people knew any better

You didnt hear me say it was "safer". You heard me say it was "just another way of doing the same thing" and "just as safe" if you know what you are doing. Knocking the safety off a pistol or cocking the hammer and pointing it at someone is an inherrently unsafe activity. It's meant to be that way. I merely explained how it came to be and how it works.

You may not have thought of this; but there is ALWAYS THE POTENTIAL FOR ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE OF A FIREARM EVERY TIME YOU DRAW IT, no matter what the method of making it ready to fire. You, the individual, are the ultimate safety feature of any gun. I believe the quibbling about how to carry the 1911 is just that. The old 1911's had a floating firing pin (...one without the safety feature...). That means that you could, in fact, carry a round in the chamber with the hammer down and be safe. The various safety features related to 1911 firing pin locks are an "improvement" done to keep the more "klutzy" among us from shooting themselves and suing firearms manufacturers.

You may not have thought much about this, but folks have been carrying 1911's in various states of readiness since world war one. Your generation is not necessarily the "smartest and safest" of the lot. There are lots of old time pistoleros who carried the 1911. I would take a baby aspirin and calm down if i wuz you.

Leroy

[kesava]

Cocked, locked and Safety. I am clumsy and paranoid... Unlike my uncle, he was dyslexic and paranoid, he thought he was watching everybody...

[VERO1]

Just because something was done years ago by people doesn't make the practice correct! Growing up, we would break thermometers to get the mercury to play with. As a teen, it was perfectly acceptable practice to dig a hole in the driveway and allow used motor oil from the car to drain into it. My high school chemistry teacher taught us to make grapefruit wine and acetelyn bombs during class. I could continue all night, many others could also, I am sure.

Keeping up with the times is not neccesarily a bad thing, sometimes old is wrong! I know, I am old! But if you show me I am wrong I can change. Also our generation is not the smartest just stubborn and hard headed as hell!

[Guest dmayes2]

like it or not, I'll continue to carry any way I see fit. 10 years with no problems. Who are you or anyone else to say different. Or should I have said all cocked no safety and finger on the trigger.

[gregintenn]

I would encourage you to take the 1911 apart and study the inner workings of it. If you have any engineering ability at all about you, you'll understand how the 1911 was meant to be carried.

[Guest eyescream]

I'm sure you could train the tendency in. You can train anything, I guess.

It just seems to me that cocking on your draw stroke requires a lot of fine motor control during an adrenaline dump (like in a situation where you REALLY need to get that gun into action in a big hurry). Fine motor control's the first thing that goes out the window in a situation like that.

I'm not saying that anybody's wrong for carrying half-cocked with the safety off, but it seems like taking the long way around to me.

[Alpha13]

If you have any written support for the half cock method, I'd certainly like to see it.

+1

[Punisher84]

like it or not, I'll continue to carry any way I see fit. 10 years with no problems. Who are you or anyone else to say different. Or should I have said all cocked no safety and finger on the trigger.

Most of us are people with experience?

[StumpyBeagle]

like it or not, I'll continue to carry any way I see fit. 10 years with no problems. Who are you or anyone else to say different. Or should I have said all cocked no safety and finger on the trigger.

Most old sayings have a good basis in fact. This seems to fit in two ways, "Going off half cocked" first and foremost your attitude and secondly the way you prefer to carry. I myself have cleaned up a few bad habits here at TGO by simply reading and paying attention and realizing a lot of these guys have been doing this a lot longer than I have.

[Mike.357]

seems to be a consensus here.

But one thing that entered my mind. I could swear I read somehwere (other than an internet message board )that if a 1911 hammer was on half cock, and it dropped, it would not drop with enough force to fire the round.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Mike.357

[leroy]

....I would encourage you to take the 1911 apart and study the inner workings of it. If you have any engineering ability at all about you, you'll understand how the 1911 was meant to be carried. .....

Greg:___________

Be careful about this. Some of us are engineers. Registered Professional ones at that. Retired after 37 years of practice.

Since i helped stir this little hornet's nest up to begin with; I'll try to explain the "cock on draw" carry mechanics, and the way to make the gun "safe" again. In the "old days" (...in my case, about 1965..) you didnt see the ambidextrious safeties you see now. You saw the standard safety (...the one on the left...). The best 1911's were the plain jane Colt manufactured ones. That is what most of the 1911 guys had then.

If you were left handed (...i am...), you had a problem with carrying the pistol "cocked and locked" because you couldnt quickly knock the safety off on the draw due to being wrong handed (...remember, the single safety is on the left...). To solve this problem, some folks opted to carry the 1911 with the hammer down on a loaded round or on the half cock and full cock the pistol on draw, just like the old timers in the western movies did their single action army colts.

Remember, the 1911 has a rebounding firing pin (...one that is not as long as the firing pin channel...). That means that the pistol could be carried hammer down and the firing pin not rest on the primer of the round in the spout. It takes the energy of the hammer to smack the firing pin, overcome the spring pressure holding the firing pin rearward, and drive the pin forward forcefully to set off a round in a 1911. The procedure was simple, you drew the pistol, and during the draw stroke, you cocked the hammer --- VIOLA--ready to do business (...as Punisher would say, "ready to void birth certificates"...).

To make the pistol safe to reholster, we always pointed the pistol in a safe direction and carefully lowered the hammer with either the off hand thumb or index finger inserted in the space between the hammer and the back of the frame. I always gently pushed the hammer back with my off hand digit (...to lift it off the full cock notch so as not to 'damage" the engagement surfaces...) gently squeezed the trigger, and carefully (...and gently...) lowered the hammer with my thumb (...which is plenty strong enough to do all this...) all the way down in the frame, retracting my off hand digit as the hammer was lowered. As was said before, this worked well with the spur hammer, because the spur is easy to get a good grip on. It didn't work so well with the rowell (...round top...) hammer, but you could still do it if you were careful.

In regard to the "original" design (...up thru the 70's...) of the 1911; there are two (...ok, three, if you count the grip safety...) distinct mechanical safety systems. The first is the rebounding firing pin which allows the hammer to be rested on the firing pin and the pin not touch the primer of a loaded round; and the "safety" that blocks the hammer. We can quibble about which one is "more safe"; but the truth of the matter is that neither one is completely failsafe. The main reason you have these "enhanced" safety features on today's 1911's (....the series 80 colts and the series 2 kimbers, and so on ---the ones with the additional firing pin lock safeties ...) is that in the eighties folks started shooting themselves and hiring lawyers to sue the manufacturers who built the pistols under the guise of "defective design". The combination of activist judges, sorry lawyers, and idiotic juries came together to allow these suits and award jugements in some cases. That drove the pistol manufacturers to "enhance" the safety features of the 1911 (...and other types of handguns as well -- look at the current smiths...). That is how you have gotten to our present design features.

Hope this clears up any angst about all this and asuages any outrage at the method of carry. It will work, and it is another way of doing things. Is it best for you; you gotta decide that. ....By the way, my carry 1911 has an ambidexterious safety, it can be carried 'cocked and locked' and made ready quickly to fire with my left hand... . Remember, there are lots of ways to do things.

Regards,

Leroy