God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[Oh Shoot]

I think there are 7 in what's called the Apocrypha? IIRC...

Those are accepted by some sects and in some Bibles. Bel and the Dragon is my fav.

There are MANY books that were never made the cut at all. Gospels by "Mary Magdelene" and "Judas" among many others.

Look up "Gnostic Scriptures"

- OS

[Steelharp]

(I use quotes on the names, as all the gospels are generally acknowledged as being written anonymously).

- OS

Actually, it's been acknowledged that most biblical text was written by Paul. (I love these discussions; makes one think.)

[Guest Jamie]

I think if you really want to know about biblical scholarship you'd get Understanding the Bible by Stephan Harris. Warning, it is a text book and it is written in the most boring manner possible. But you'll learn a lot and if it is your wont you'll be able to lay the smack down on a ton of literalists.

Thanks, but that sounds like a lot of work for what's nothing more than a pass-time, on occasion.

Besides, most of the time I seem to already know more about their source material than the fanatics and zealots do, so any more than simple rational thinking would be wasted. And with the others, a simple conversation or debate doesn't usually require much head-batting.

Still, if I ever run across a copy, I doubt I'll pass it by...

[Oh Shoot]

Um... not so sure about that one...

I heard a few years ago that there was a stone tablet that was found that mentioned Jesus, and him having a tussle with some tax collectors. It was reportedly some sort of "official" document of some kind.

But that, as far as I know, is the only record of his actual existence, or documentation of any particular action on his part. And it's been long enough ago that I can't cite you a source for the find, at the moment.

Sorry.

Sounds like "Coast to Coast Overnight" stuff.

I think if it had any credibility, would be widely espoused.

- OS

[Guest trigem]

I

The physics behind the creation of the Universe is, admittedly, sketchy but it is plausible & large amounts of it are proveable. The entire theory of creationism teeters on the acceptance of the bible as being ultimately true, implausible as it may be.

Alright, lets make this simple!

Did your bow evolve or did it have a maker

How about your guns,cars,knives, cell phones etc.......

Of course they were made by a creator:p They didn't just evolve out of nothing:screwy:

Now! if they needed a creator than how much more would people need to have had a creator! Are you telling me that small junk made by humans can't evolve but we did,

[Handsome Rob]

You know what? I honestly think that is has been one of th most informative & educational forum threads (for me) that I've been a part of for a long time!

[Oh Shoot]

Actually, it's been acknowledged that most biblical text was written by Paul. (I love these discussions; makes one think.)

I think you have "gospels" and "epistles" confused. 6 to 13 (depending on the scholar of choice) of the books were attributed to him (the "epistles") but none of the Gospels.

Indeed, Paul never claimed to have met Jesus.

His Damascus Road conversion was a vision of the resurrected Christ, after the fact of Jesus' death.

- OS

Edited September 3, 2010 by OhShoot

[Guest Jamie]

Sounds like "Coast to Coast Overnight" stuff.

Do I even wanna know what that is? "Coast to Coast Overnight"?

Some National Enquirer-like show or such?

I think if it had any credibility, would be widely espoused.

- OS

I can't speak to the credibility of the find or finders... it may all even have been disproven by now.

And in the end - and I remember this being stated in the report I saw - it didn't prove any more than the existence of the person, and confirm one event, if that. It certainly didn't suddenly make him the son of god or confirm anything else that has ever been written.

[Handsome Rob]

Alright, lets make this simple!

Did your bow evolve or did it have a maker

How about your guns,cars,knives, cell phones etc.......

Of course they were made by a creator:p They didn't just evolve out of nothing:screwy:

Now! if they needed a creator than how much more would people need to have had a creator! Are you telling me that small junk made by humans can't evolve but we did,

C'mon trig, you can do better than that. Things like that are created by a person, not a divine being. The designs & manufacturing materials & methods have obviously evolved & improved over time.

Think before you drink before you post

[Guest Jamie]

C'mon trig, you can do better than that. Things like that are created by a person, not a divine being. The designs & manufacturing materials & methods have obviously evolved & improved over time.

Think before you drink before you post

Give some of our computers and machines time, and they may very well end up evolving without our help. And, ultimately, end up being their own creators, even if we humans did develop the initial tools and set the whole thing into motion.

Still, that's a rather different proposition from the beginning of organic life...

[Oh Shoot]

Alright, lets make this simple!

Did your bow evolve or did it have a maker

How about your guns,cars,knives, cell phones etc.......

To echo RobTattoo, you're really just embarrassing yourself here.

Obviously, only life forms capable of selective, accidental, or interventional mutation in a reproductive cycle evolve.

- OS

[Guest Letereat!]

Speaking of Coast to Coast and george Norry,

My favorite all time and current theory about the history of Humanity is "The Ancient Aliens" Eric Von Daniken Chariots of the Gods Is the classic Starter book on this Line.

Loooooots of Evidence and compelling questions William Shatner Even Did a fuul length documentary waaay back that is Very professional, serious intelligent and compelling.

Ive got is stored on a flash drive somewhere, its very long, 90 minutes i think. but once u start watching it you cant stop. Its a true classic

[Guest mosinon]

Alright, lets make this simple!

Did your bow evolve or did it have a maker

How about your guns,cars,knives, cell phones etc.......

Of course they were made by a creator:p They didn't just evolve out of nothing:screwy:

Now! if they needed a creator than how much more would people need to have had a creator! Are you telling me that small junk made by humans can't evolve but we did,

I think what you are getting at is the notion that we can tell design when we see it? If I were to find a computer in the woods I would certainly know it was man made and not a "natural" artifact.

The problem with this notion is that, if there is no God, no human specialness, then everything arises of natural processes. A computer is just something humans make. Like an ant hill or something.

Perhaps, though, I'm mistaken. You might be thinking of irreducible complexity. This is the notion that evolution just can't happen, there has to be a designer. The classic example of this notion is the mousetrap. How can a mousetrap evolve? Take one part away and it is useless. How could a flagellum just evolve? Unless it is used for locomotion where is the selective process that would allow such a thing to evolve?

But is the mousetrap really irreducible? Nope.

How about the flagellum? Nope.

I can't explain it so God did it is not a valid argument.

[Guest trigem]

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen,

being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power

and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God,

they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their

reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves

to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible

God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and

four–footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up

in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be

dishonoured among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God

for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator,

who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile

passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is agains

nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,

burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness,

and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.

And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge,

God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness;

full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, hateful to

God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

without understanding, covenant–breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:

who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they which practise such things are worthy

of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.

(Rom 1:20-32)

[Guest Jamie]

Damn, Letereat!... you've gone and done it now... You've brought out the "space aliens actually seeded/created the human race" argument into the thread.

There's sure to be locking and banning to be had now...

[Guest Letereat!]

Do I even wanna know what that is? "Coast to Coast Overnight"?

Some National Enquirer-like show or such? Jamie

Classic conspiracy way out alien greys are here stuff and a tad bit of legitimate stuff to get the old paranoid juices goin for most. Worth listening to for intertainment and some lagit blurbs. On realll late though

[Guest mosinon]

The Bible says so so I believe it is a valid argument Trigem. Not satisfying but valid. I appreciate your adherence to your faith.

[Guest trigem]

[Guest Jamie]

Trigem, repeating the same stuff over and over, or cutting and pasting the text from the bible isn't going to make it any more believable, convincing, or even increase the chances of convincing anybody else that you're right.

It pretty much only paints you as a buffoon/fanatic/lunatic, and causes people to quit listening to you, or wasting their time by even talking to you.

The Bible isn't exactly new and unheard of. Most of us are fairly familiar with it already, and have a better-than-working knowledge of it and what it does or does not say.

In other words, you're wasting both your time and ours.

[Guest Letereat!]

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen,

being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power

and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God,

they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks;they became vain in their

reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.

Trigem:blah:

"And Their Hearts were seered as with a hot iron as they dangeled by a mere thread over the firey gates of hell,

Yea Gods Bow is Drawn at your Heart and He has But to release His Arrow of Judgment upon thee so that ye may know his vengence," MeIll take you on word for word in the judgement and damnation dept. U read Much Johathan Edwards?????

Edited September 3, 2010 by Letereat!

[Guest Jamie]

Classic conspiracy way out alien greys are here stuff and a tad bit of legitimate stuff to get the old paranoid juices goin for most. Worth listening to for intertainment and some lagit blurbs. On realll late though

Okay. I can honestly say I've never encountered it then.

[Oh Shoot]

Damn, Letereat!... you've gone and done it now... You've brought out the "space aliens actually seeded/created the human race" argument into the thread.

There's sure to be locking and banning to be had now...

I'll risk it.

I, for one, think that alien intervention is as logical a thesis as any other at this point to explain the quantum leap in the brain of what homo sapiens came to be. Twice even. Once about 50,000 years ago and again 5,000 - 10,000 years ago. Evolution alone just doesn't seem to account for the rapidity in that department. If the rest of our evolution had kept up, our spine should be three times thicker to support the weight, we wouldn't have an appendix, etc etc.

Von Daniken was part charlatan and part scholar (and yes, I know he's been in prison a couple of times), but he was the first to throw the proposition out to the mainstream.

But there's been a lot of supporting "evidence" since.

The full blown emergence of Sumer is amazing and completely inexplicable in the sense of natural evolution. The first full blown culture on earth, complete with agriculture, industry, law, etc, and POOF, it just sprang up, with no even remote similar previous examples ever found.

Read Sitchin's stuff about that - fascinating. Although I doubt if he has any more of it right than Van Daniken. The 12th Planet was his first, I think.

Then again, maybe it wasn't really carefully planned by an alien influence. We may just be the result of a Zygotean grammar schooler's science experiment. And he's only now entering college.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...The Bible isn't exactly new and unheard of. Most of us are fairly familiar with it already, and have a better-than-working knowledge of it and what it does or does not say.

.

Besides a life long interest from being brought up Baptist and investigation into all things religious, I also took and later taught a course on the Bible as literature, so wound up doing a good bit of research; all my ravings are not pasted from Wiki or something! Just in case anyone wondered.

And of course, in a Shakespearean sense, the King James Version is the ONLY one to read aloud. But it's also the most flawed translation-wise.

Tell the truth, had I been born/raised a Jew, I'd probably still adhere to Judaism (short of keeping kosher, that is). And why not convert? Well, because it's as much a cultural heritage as a religious one; I don't think Sammy Davis Jr. was really a Jew.

- OS

[Guest Jamie]

The one good thing about Trigem's "spewage" is that it reminded me that I needed to go put some whiskey in this glass of cola...

So maybe he really is doing God's work after all....

[Oh Shoot]

Okay. I can honestly say I've never encountered it then.

Night Owl territory. Generally on after midnight in most markets. Sort of Alex Jones but including off the planet, too.

You can see some content streaming on the site:

Home - Coast to Coast AM

- OS