God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[E4 No More]

Wow! This crap thread is still going? All this arguing with neither side submitting ANY facts to substantiate their claims. Why? Because there are none on either side concerning the topic at hand. But I'll tell you this: I'd rather meet my death full of faith and discovering that I was wrong than do so without faith and discover I'm wrong.

[E4 No More]

But it does take a considerable amount of time for the rocks to form around many fossilized bones.

FYI: Mt St. Helens proved that wrong.

[Daniel]

Daniel, Are you just trying to bait people so you can discipline them? Your a real big man, Daniel.

Gregintenn, has anyone been disciplined in this thread? If people obey rules they dont get disciplined. I am getting over the accusatory tone your posts keep taking with me though, Gregintenn.

[Daniel]

The answer to that would be yes.

Dont make presumptions. You don't know me.

[Guest EB31]

Wow! This crap thread is still going? All this arguing with neither side submitting ANY facts to substantiate their claims. Why? Because there are none on either side concerning the topic at hand. But I'll tell you this: I'd rather meet my death full of faith and discovering that I was wrong than do so without faith and discover I'm wrong.

Finally.13 or so pages before an intelligent post lol Where do I send the thank you card? Haha

[Daniel]

Wow! This crap thread is still going? All this arguing with neither side submitting ANY facts to substantiate their claims. Why? Because there are none on either side concerning the topic at hand. But I'll tell you this: I'd rather meet my death full of faith and discovering that I was wrong than do so without faith and discover I'm wrong.

No one appears to be arguing here. It seems to be a calm conversation amongst forum members as it should be.

[Guest Jamie]

Daniel, Are you just trying to bait people so you can discipline them? Your a real big man, Daniel.

Has anybody been punished yet?

If not, how is this thread any different than any other thread here that's started a debate?

For that matter, if this one isn't okay/approved/whatever... then why has Trigem been allowed to start the threads that he has?

As for the current debate... nobody's going to ever win it. Mostly because it CAN'T be won. Not from either side.

The reason for that is that just because the mechanics or "reason" for something happening may be unknown, doesn't mean god did it, or that there was any kind of intelligence responsible for the action. By the same token, even if all the "whys" of a situation are known and 100% provable, there's no way of proving that there's NOT an intelligence behind the action in question, that didn't set the whole works in motion.

So, with a bit of imagination, and the ability to change perspective, a person can argue either side of the debate concerning creation vs. evolution, with equal success, without any trouble at all.

Let me put it this way... Let's say a tree in my back yard dies, then falls down some point later on. Did god do it? Well, if he did, he didn't do it directly.

The insects or disease that killed it, plus decay, coupled with gravity did the deed. Wasn't necessarily any more to it than that. And there doesn't need to be. But none of that rules out that there could be more to it than that.

And that's pretty much how it is with everything else; there are reasons, as in cause and effect, but that doesn't mean or imply that there's intelligence or direction behind those reasons. Doesn't mean there isn't, either.

And anybody claiming there is or isn't is doing so for their own purposes.

[Oh Shoot]

...And anybody claiming there is or isn't is doing so for their own purposes.

I don't see what atheists or agnostics stand to gain by their arguments, but certainly, "religion" began when that first wily biped discovered he could be fed and clothed by "interpreting God" for the rest of the tribe, rather than going out and risking life and limb to kill the mammoth himself.

- OS

[Guest Jamie]

I don't see what atheists or agnostics stand to gain by their arguments

How 'bout convincing themselves and others that they're not going to the HELL those people waving the books say they're going to if they don't change their ways and fall in line with their particular group?

Also... sometimes... just for their own personal amusement, and to watch those other people get all twitchy and froth at the mouth...

Edited September 3, 2010 by Jamie

[Oh Shoot]

.. But I'll tell you this: I'd rather meet my death full of faith and discovering that I was wrong than do so without faith and discover I'm wrong.

Finally.13 or so pages before an intelligent post lol Where do I send the thank you card? Haha

Assuming that were possible, I fail to see how discovering a life time of self-delusion would be a psychological boost.

- OS

[Desert Rat]

Also... sometimes... just for their own personal amusement, and to watch those other people get all twitchy and froth at the mouth...

You caught me!

[Oh Shoot]

How 'bout convincing themselves and others that they're not going to the HELL those people waving the books say they're going to if they don't change their ways and fall in line with their particular group?

Also... sometimes... just for their own personal amusement, and to watch those other people get all twitchy and froth at the mouth...

Point 2 has some validity, I admit.

- OS

[Steelharp]

If there is a God:

Why does he let priest molest young boys?

Why do people assume that God "lets" things like this happen? We have the ability to choose how we behave. God isn't in that level of involvement. If He was, He would just make us all love Him, and everything would be good.

[Oh Shoot]

Why do people assume that God "lets" things like this happen? We have the ability to choose how we behave. God isn't in that level of involvement....

He sure used to be, if you believe the Old Testament. And he was usually pissed off when he chose to act.

- OS

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I haven't been thumping a Bible or arguing against

science. Whether some of you like it or not, I don't

care, either. I rather like some of the exchanges that

took place. Thanks, Daniel.

Guess I better go start an Obama thread, now.

[Sandman]

When I look up at the stars or when I think about how intricate the human body is I can't help but know there is a God. Can anyone truly explain how the universe came about? Nope. You have to believe whatever you feel most connected to. I personally feel that a higher being fashioned the universe, the earth, me...I'm not the type person to tell you that you are going to hell if you don't believe what I believe. I may very well be wrong, but for me, I don't feel that I am. The Bible is a book of stories, some real, some meant to teach. If me and 5 other people read the parables, there is a very good chance that we each would take a different lesson from them. That's the point. The Bible is tailored for different people with different perpectives. Did Adam and Eve exist? I have no idea, but the lesson is there. The Bible never says how old the earth is and also mentions the existence of dinosaurs. To respond to a question about priests molesting kids...humans have free will to do what they want. They have every freedom to do bad things like that...to murder...to rape...but we also have every right to do extraordinary things. If free will didn't exist, we would all be followers of a God that created us. Instead, I believe that God gave us a choice to believe or not to, to interpret how we want to. When I die, if I was wrong about God, I led a good life full of love for people, myself, and a belief that made me a better person. All you need is love.

Edited September 3, 2010 by JohnnyFox

[Guest Letereat!]

Just bfore this blows up beyond all comprehension (again) I'd just like to point out that Stephen Hawking is a THEORETICAL physicist. He devises possible THEORIES based on what little evidence is available to him. He neither poses nor presents his theories as fact.robtatoo

The voice of reason.

:grouchy:I hate when I miss a good thread when its still smokin. Im gonna put some quotes from a Satanist up next and see if I can really stoke the fires.:whistle:

[Steelharp]

He sure used to be, if you believe the Old Testament. And he was usually pissed off when he chose to act.

- OS

OS, there is a difference in the translation of "God" and "LORD." Shall we first agree that God and Satan do not coexist; that Satan cannot be in the presence of God? With that as a given, in Job, it says:

[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

[8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

[12] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

You will notice it says the "sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." This alone substantiates that "God" and "LORD" are not the same.

[Guest Letereat!]

Jobe Smobe, its called an allegory, a story meant to empart a meaning. in this one blind servitude at all costs.

Sooorrry not for me.You are cowering before a God that has a gun to your head. "Bow down and worship me and doo all that I say ......OR ELSE SINNER ITS THE ETERNAL LAKE OF FIRE FOR YOU!!!! Sorry Sir but piss off ill make my own way.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Letereat!

[Handsome Rob]

FOSSIL YEARS: TENS, THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS?—Does fossilization really take millions of years?

The fact that something is fossilized does not mean that it is millions of years old. In fact, scientists know that fossilization can take place rather rapidly under the right conditions; quick burial, the right amounts of water, and suitable minerals.

Conditions for fossilization were ideal during the Flood. Researchers have discovered that bones, wood and other objects can fossilize in relatively short periods of time (e.g., 5 to100 years), if the conditions are right. Fossilization does not take millions, or even thousands, of years.

I can show you fossils are here in TN, In a riverbed you can see the layers that cover them, they are shallow, plants that are easy to find

That would be petrification, not fossilization. Petrification takes place when minerals are completely deposited on the outside of an object & take the form of the object they surround. Fossilization is a process of lithification & remineralisation by the surrounding minerals

FYI: Mt St. Helens proved that wrong.

Not really. That's like pouring concrete over something & calling it a fossil. Once again, Mt St. Helens remains are petrified, not fossilized. the remains were covered in hot volcanic ash & molten lava which hardened upon cooling, leaving mineral covered remains.

Edited September 3, 2010 by robtattoo

[Guest Jamie]

You will notice it says the "sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." This alone substantiates that "God" and "LORD" are not the same.

To me, this has the same sort'a reek to it that the arguments concerning the militia and the 2nd amendment do... It's more or less a matter of semantics, and as you've mentioned, translation.

To get to the bottom of it, I'm quite sure would require the original text, and someone who was fluent in the language it was written in. A working knowledge of the habits, customs, and patterns/manner of speech of the era and area at the time it was written would also be invaluable...

[Handsome Rob]

The Bible is a book of stories, some real.......

Could you please tell me which ones? No proof exists that any of them are true.

[Guest Letereat!]

Quotes from a Satanist. Anton Lavey

“If anything, we are enslaved more as human beings now than at any time, probably, in man's history. But it is so sugarcoated, it's so slick, it's so polished.”

“Every religion in the world that has destroyed people is based on love”

“A friend of mine who was a founding father of the Church of Satan, who later I compared notes with, said when he was a kid, he too managed to get into Sally's Nude Ranch, and in the corral he saw his Sunday school teacher!!! That was a real epiphany for him. From that moment on he was a Satanist.”

“I've always been timid. I wait for the mating signal, yet I want to show my interest, but I'm too ******* bashful to go for it! I have no sympathy for wolves. Why can't a man wait and see if there is any interest in them? Every woman wants to be pursued, it's a courting dance, a mating game and it should be that way, played out. The world is full of creeps.”

“But the average person doesn't have that much imagination. They just want to be entertained. They want to have the tableau presented for them. They don't want to participate beyond a certain point. They want the safety of the herd, to be catered to, sit back and enjoy.”

“My parents were lenient. My mother believed God was another word for nature. I took up Satanism not out of desperation, but out of logic. I rebelled, not but because of a religious or repressive childhood. I wanted to join the French Foreign Legion.”

[Sandman]

Could you please tell me which ones? No proof exists that any of them are true.

That's like saying anything predating video evidence is false. The battle of the alamo wasn't real. You can't prove it. You've read about it, you have the seen the fortress, but you cannot prove it. If you believe history books, then Jesus was real. He was crucified. It's all relative.

[Steelharp]

Could you please tell me which ones? No proof exists that any of them are true.

Neither is there any proof that any of them are false.