God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[Garufa]

Finding the Lord on your own terms is the only true way to be one with him and enjoy a rich, fruitful faith. I say that from the heart.

Now, please enjoy this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYMuhN7OZgM

[Guest Jamie]

Believe it or not, I am not religious, I don't belong to any denomination, God opened up my hard head to His word, I'm growing in faith as I read the Word, Understanding comes slowly, I look at it as a personal relationship with Him.

I have been seeking for 20 years now, I challenge Christians whom don't read the Word but follow false teachings, it's really sad so many are following false non biblical teachings,

I do not just follow blindly, I tare every teaching that comes out of the denominations and compare it to what the Word says, It's amazing how many ways preachers can twist words.... It is the only real peace I have ever found

Thanks for not passing judgment, I genuinely care for others, I do this for no other reason.

Trigem, the thing I don't think you understand is that the problem that I and others have with you isn't your beliefs, or which god or religious text you think is correct.

It's your mentality, methodology, and refusal to accept other people's belief system, and not continually try to force your own on them.

To me, you're no different than Barak Obama, Dianne Feinstein, Sarah Brady, or any of the other numerous people that claim they know best, and that they somehow have a right to force people to comply with their way of thinking, and what they think is best for all of us.

Yes, the subject matter is different - religion and god vs. whether or not a person should be allowed to own a gun - but in the end the mindset is exactly the same: You aren't going to allow people to make up their own minds and decide for themselves. You cannot accept that you may be wrong, and that your way is not suitable for everyone else.

And that will never bring you anything but a fight from myself and many others.

In the end that may not be any more right in some ways than you are, but personally I feel that simply letting folks like you go unchecked is far more dangerous than a person standing their ground and fighting you to the bitter end, if it comes to that.

Call it a personality quirk, if you will....

[Mike.357]

Thanks for not passing judgment, I genuinely care for others, I do this for no other reason.

I figured as much.

I just have lots of questions that really have never been answered.

The Bible, greatest book ever printed.

[strickj]

I genuinely care for others, I do this for no other reason.

I may be young, but I am still an adult and more then capable to care and think for myself. There is no reason for anyone to care for me.

mmmkthanks!

[Guest trigem]

Trigem, the thing I don't think you understand is that the problem that I and others have with you isn't your beliefs, or which god or religious text you think is correct.

It's your mentality, methodology, and refusal to accept other people's belief system, and not continually try to force your own on them.

Call it a personality quirk, if you will....

Sorry but where did I try to force anything on anybody:rolleyes:

You express your thoughts & I express mine, Show me where I tried to force you into anything?

You have chanted your unbelief over & over again and you want me to except yours? but you are very clear that you reject mine

Now that you cannot convert me to your unbelief you compare me to the God haters? (you're no different than Barak Obama, Dianne Feinstein, Sarah Brady)

What is that:cool:

I understand you now, You know there is a GOD and your afraid, as well you should be..

Good luck with your incoherent rambling, come back when you can make more sense...

[Guest Jamie]

[Guest jackdm3]

Sorry but where did I try to force anything on anybody

It's your volume, style and intensity. Which is a type of "force."

[Guest trigem]

It's your volume, style and intensity. Which is a type of "force."

Gee, I thought I was the low key one:D

[onemancoyote]

The more I read and try to understand the world the more it becomes apparent that there never were any gods. Religion stems from an unwillingness to accept that there are things we just don't understand as of yet. Eventually humanity shall be able to move past this. Then we will read about Jesus in the same book we read about the Roman gods and laugh. I've heard from a lot of christian people that they currently believe that Christianity is on the decline in the US with the younger generation. We can only hope that this is true. As Richard Dawkins said, “I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” Religion causes more trouble than it is worth. All one can hope to gain from it is a mild placebo affect anyways.

[Smith]

I think you might be missing the point; it doesn't matter whether you choose or not, since the outcome was known before you ever even existed. That's what I mean when I say there goes free will. Your perception(s) of the situation have no real bearing on it if the outcome is still the same.

In that regard, you're place in heaven or hell... whichever you're destined for... is already reserved for you.

And if you want to go the multiverse route, where all realities are valid, then where you end up may simply vary from one to the other as you play out all the possible choices you could make in your life.

Let me put it this way... if we sit down to play a game of chess, and I already know what the last move is going to be, and who's going to make it... does the rest of the game really matter?

No I got your point, been around for a long time. We just see it from different vantage points.

as to "does the chess game matter" .... yes, very much so. The one who knows, wants you to realize his greatness and it is only in the futility of your efforts to change the unchangeable that YOU come to realize his greatness.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Smith

[Guest Jamie]

The one who knows, wants you to realize his greatness and only in the futility of your efforts to change the unchangeable is it that YOU realize his greatness.

Well, if he did indeed create me... and knows everything, including everything about me, then he's probably aware of the futility of that venture.

After all, he's the one that made me who and what I am, no?

Oh, and in the "for what it's worth" department... I have absolutely no ability to fear my own creator. None. It's just something that's beyond my comprehension.

[Guest Jamie]

By the way, Trigem... are we supposed to be saying "thank you" for you preaching at us?

....reminds me of somebody else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGb2ZhNjWpY

[Chucktshoes]

I think you might be missing the point; it doesn't matter whether you choose or not, since the outcome was known before you ever even existed. That's what I mean when I say there goes free will. Your perception(s) of the situation have no real bearing on it if the outcome is still the same.

In that regard, you're place in heaven or hell... whichever you're destined for... is already reserved for you.

And if you want to go the multiverse route, where all realities are valid, then where you end up may simply vary from one to the other as you play out all the possible choices you could make in your life.

Let me put it this way... if we sit down to play a game of chess, and I already know what the last move is going to be, and who's going to make it... does the rest of the game really matter?

Exactly.

[Guest Jamie]

Exactly.

Don't take the thought out of context. It's invalid if you do.

The gist of it... the summation of the equation... is that you are going where you're going, and nothing else matters or will make any difference. And that's one of the reasons I have trouble with god... any god... being all-knowing, and a person still having a choice. Unless there's something god can't know, or can't foresee, then we're all - him included - pretty much stuck with the destined results.

And that's not a game I will willingly play.

To revisit something Smith said earlier... "as to 'does the chess game matter' .... yes, very much so"... Well, if it does, then the end result has to be fluid and open to some level of chance. And if it doesn't... then eternity becomes inconsequential.

Not buying that last one either.

So, with that in mind, there must be more to all of this than any of us know, or hope to figure out at the moment. Which for me means keeping an open mind, and not becoming too dependent/enslaved by any particular theory or belief.

Which always seems to dump me right back at the same old place: Don't know, and ain't gonna claim to. Will keep asking questions 'til I can ask no more, but certainly won't subscribe to anybody else's thinking or beliefs just because the say so, or simply because "that's the way it's always been done".

So... are y'all tired of me yet? Maybe got a headache 'cause I'm making you think too much?

[Smith]

Don't take the thought out of context. It's invalid if you do.

The gist of it... the summation of the equation... is that you are going where you're going, and nothing else matters or will make any difference. And that's one of the reasons I have trouble with god... any god... being all-knowing, and a person still having a choice. Unless there's something god can't know, or can't foresee, then we're all - him included - pretty much stuck with the destined results.

And that's not a game I will willingly play.

To revisit something Smith said earlier... "as to 'does the chess game matter' .... yes, very much so"... Well, if it does, then the end result has to be fluid and open to some level of chance. And if it doesn't... then eternity becomes inconsequential.

Not buying that last one either.

So, with that in mind, there must be more to all of this than any of us know, or hope to figure out at the moment. Which for me means keeping an open mind, and not becoming too dependent/enslaved by any particular theory or belief.

Which always seems to dump me right back at the same old place: Don't know, and ain't gonna claim to. Will keep asking questions 'til I can ask no more, but certainly won't subscribe to anybody else's thinking or beliefs just because the say so, or simply because "that's the way it's always been done".

So... are y'all tired of me yet? Maybe got a headache 'cause I'm making you think too much?

Wrong perspective. Think of it in these terms. When I'm watching my children learn I generally know the outcome of their simple choices. They however have no idea the consequences of their choices. Sometimes they do, but they test it anyway thinking i didn't mean what i told them. So is there no value in their attempts? Absolutely not. It's everything. Without that discovery of what is unknown to them yet known to me, THEY gain knowledge and grow to maturity. I also become more important because I am the teacher, comforter, and rescuer of their lives. Although the analogy has some holes in relation to God, the principal is the same. God wants to be that same guide as we grow and discover truth. By discovering truth we discover his greatness. In fact Jesus stated his whole purpose was to testify to truth.

This is why i agree with some of you folks like Jaime who have a healthy skepticism (to an extent ). More in the church should and more of the world shouldn't emotionally respond to those who don't. If you are truly seeking truth, I believe you will come to a point where a decision has to be made.

However, Just like that child you can either choose wise things or foolish things. Just because you have great parents doesn't mean you won't be rebellious and end up a junkie on the streets and vice versa. I've seen it both ways. God's purpose is for us to seek him. God gets no joy from us being forced to choose him just like I would get no joy from forcing my kids to love me. However, I can tell you that there is no greater feeling than when I get home and my kids come running to meet me and wrap their arms, legs, and anything else they can hug with around my neck. That is real and that is a real relationship. It is no different than with God.

[Guest Jamie]

Wrong perspective.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Speaking of perspectives... here's more from Professor Hawking:

Is the grand design within our grasp?

And another:

Why God Did Not Create the Universe

BTW, the problem with using children as an analogy is that the more the children grow and learn, and the smarter they get, the more difficult it becomes to predict what they will or will not do. And this is not the sort of predictability we're talking about with religion. We are talking about knowing - exactly - what a person will do, when they'll do it, and how it will ultimately end... Their every action, from birth to death, down to the smallest detail.

And that's a perspective no parent will ever know.

Edited September 4, 2010 by Jamie

[Smith]

Maybe. Maybe not.

Speaking of perspectives... here's more from Professor Hawking:

Is the grand design within our grasp?

And another:

Why God Did Not Create the Universe

I didn't really think you would see it that way.

[Guest Jamie]

I didn't really think you would see it that way.

Am I that predictable? :)

( Actually, that one was too easy, since you had to know what was gonna happen when you said Wrong perspective, given that you have no proof that it is. )

Edited September 4, 2010 by Jamie

[Guest Letereat!]

Originally Posted by crimsonaudio

N

If, however, you'd rather continue discussing religious beliefs without actually reading and understanding the text from which those beliefs stem, then I'll bow out - I have no interest in discussing something with someone so closed-minded they won't even pick up the most common book on earth in order to have some understanding of my perspective.

t

I Propose on this statement we can only then Embark on a Discussion of the History and Origin of God and religion.. We are Currently fed this BS that Islam and Christianity are the oldest religions. Thats Because they both commited a great deal of effort in war and buring any cultural texts and religious texts they could. of course the vatican kept some for study. Animism, Panthism, Religious rituals and texts go back 40,000 to 70,000 years before Christianity. Yep Its a conglemeration of ideas collected throught the ages. Few Christians know that Imaculate Conception By Gods and Virgin Birth are not an Original idea by a long shot. Many religiouns claimed this miricle of divinity WAAAY bfore Mary and Joseph

[Guest Letereat!]

The Reprobate Heathens Vs THe Righteous And God Fearing

[Guest Jamie]

Didn't we already have a thread for reprobate heathens?

[enfield]

It was predestined that we would have one

. . . and then we did.

[Guest SUNTZU]

It was predestined that we would have one

. . . and then we did.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

-Marcus Aurelius

[Daniel]

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

-Marcus Aurelius

That is a statment I can get behind.

[Mike.357]

live on in the memories of your loved ones."

I am thinking that is about all that happens after we die.