God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[Handsome Rob]

No, I'm simply pointing out that there are things that aren't fully explained.

However, even if we ignore the creation 'days' and stick with the story of Adam and Eve, there's NOTHING in the bible that tells us how long they lived in the garden before they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge - it could literally have been billions of years - we simply don't know, and it's unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

But then, I'm not sure why I'm even explaining this to you, as you've obviously made up your mind already. I would suggest you actually read up on the subject before making patently false statements.

So then we have to believe that a long time ago, people had a life expectancy of (possibly) billions of years?

That single fact, for me, throws the entire argument out of the water.

I don't think I have made any definately false statements, but I do think you've made at least one that is incomprehensibly odd, that being the possible age of Adam & Eve being in the billions of years & the fact they may have been superhuman is unimportant. If they existed at all, which I firmly believe is a long shot at best & as likely as Princess Leah & Luke Skywalker.

Edited September 2, 2010 by robtattoo

[Chucktshoes]

You know, I am really starting to think that a "Faith and Spirituality" subforum might be a pretty good idea.

[Handsome Rob]

The bible wasn't intended to be entertainment.

Cite your proof.

If you read it simply as fictional story, it's a fantastically entertaining read.

Edited September 2, 2010 by robtattoo
Sorry, needed to add a bit!

[Chucktshoes]

" Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. " (Matthew 7:6, NKJV)

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes." (Proverbs 26:4-5, NKJV)

[Handsome Rob]

"Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level & beat you with experience"

[G27]

So then we have to believe that a long time ago, people had a life expectancy of (possibly) billions of years?

Nope, once again, you're making arguments with (apparently) little or no knowledge of that which you are arguing against (all the while building a few straw men along the way).

If you wish to understand what I meant, read the first few chapters of Genesis. I believe then you'll understand the point I'm making here.

If, however, you'd rather continue discussing religious beliefs without actually reading and understanding the text from which those beliefs stem, then I'll bow out - I have no interest in discussing something with someone so closed-minded they won't even pick up the most common book on earth in order to have some understanding of my perspective.

[Chucktshoes]

*nevermind*

Uncalled for.

[Handsome Rob]

Nope, once again, you're making arguments with (apparently) little or no knowledge of that which you are arguing against (all the while building a few straw men along the way).

If you wish to understand what I meant, read the first few chapters of Genesis. I believe then you'll understand the point I'm making here.

If, however, you'd rather continue discussing religious beliefs without actually reading and understanding the text from which those beliefs stem, then I'll bow out - I have no interest in discussing something with someone so closed-minded they won't even pick up the most common book on earth in order to have some understanding of my perspective.

Hey, I'm just using what you give me. You said that Adam & Eve could've lived for billions of years before they ate of the tree of knowledge. I assume that you understand your own standpoint & I'm debating with the statements that you offer up. I don't need to understand what I'm arguing against. If I understood it I could either agree or disagree. As I don't understand, I'm questioning on my way to understanding.

Incedentally I have read the Bible (And the Tora & Koran, by the way) However, I read all 3 from the standpoint of someone reading a book. I didn't read them to particularly understand & absorb the teachings, more to understand the thinking behind blind belief.

Just bfore we go any further, I'd ik to point out that I do not believe. That said, I do respect the right to belief. I know how it can enrich & enlighten the lives of believers & can comfort in a a way that nothing else can. I do not wish to belittle the beliefs of others, I just wish to understand the reasonings behind those beliefs. If I have come across as insulting to anyone's beliefs, I humbly apologise.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Cite your proof.

If you read it simply as fictional story, it's a fantastically entertaining read.

The same straw argument that would prove Star Wars is fact. Did the writer for Star Wars

really want to compare himself to the Bible, or is this just you? I choose to believe that

Star Wars is in a different category, but that's just me.

Some people go to the Bible for guidance in their life's experience. I didn't know people

did that with Star Wars. And I'm not belittling Star Wars. I liked the movies. I just don't

understand the connection you want to make.

[Guest trigem]

The Bible kinda said he did. One of the biggest problems between religion and science is the big discrepancies in the timelines

There's Junk Science = Al Gore Mother Earth Global Warming:screwy:

Good Science = The basic goal of good science is to develop a theory, paradigm, or model that provides a basis for research to understand the phenomena being studied. The model is useful only in so far as it helps to explain the observations. To this end, science develops by a formal procedure, usually termed "The Scientific Method.":D

[Handsome Rob]

The same straw argument that would prove Star Wars is fact. Did the writer for Star Wars

really want to compare himself to the Bible, or is this just you? I choose to believe that

Star Wars is in a different category, but that's just me.

Some people go to the Bible for guidance in their life's experience. I didn't know people

did that with Star Wars. And I'm not belittling Star Wars. I liked the movies. I just don't

understand the connection you want to make.

I just pulled a story off the top of my head, I'm not trying to make any comparisons other than that both are stories that may, or may not, be fictional. Star Wars was probably a bad example, because the author is still alive & can deny it's truth. Possibly a better story would've been Dante's Divine Comedy. Believeable if you're in that frame of mind, but in reality, just a story.

Who's to say though, that 1500 years from now Star Wars can't be the basis for a World Religion? It tells the story of good prevailing against evil, so it does have some basic moral teachings for us all & no-one will be alive to prove it's origins as a fictional movie.

Edited September 2, 2010 by robtattoo

[Guest 6.8 AR]

"Just bfore we go any further, I'd ik to point out that I do not believe. That said, I do respect the right to belief. I know how it can enrich & enlighten the lives of believers & can comfort in a a way that nothing else can. I do not wish to belittle the beliefs of others, I just wish to understand the reasonings behind those beliefs. If I have come across as insulting to anyone's beliefs, I humbly apologise."

No need to apologize, but it's good to here.

If you know it can enrich and enlighten and comfort in a way nothing else can, then you should know

that includes having a faith in something higher than yourself. That doesn't rule out science as a study,

or philosophy which can argue both ways, depending whose you choose to believe and how you went

about choosing it. I'm not sure I can explain everything I believe. I'm still learning, too.

[Steelharp]

Guess it just goes to show, all that Jethro book learnin' doesn't mean you're right all the time.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I just pulled a story off the top of my head, I'm not trying to make any comparisons other than that both are stories that may, or may not, be fictional. Star Wars was probably a bad example, because the author is still alive & can deny it's truth. Possibly a better story would've been Dante's Divine Comedy. Believeable if you're in that frame of mind, but in reality, just a story.

I haven't read it, but it's one I will get around to.

Believe it or not, I do remember Dante, Thomas More and Milton several other like that discussed

in adult Sunday school. Wish I remembered more of those sessions.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Guess it just goes to show, all that Jethro book learnin' doesn't mean you're right all the time.

That's correct. I wouldn't try to make that claim, either.

[Guest trigem]

I'm not trying to discount Science in any way, shape or form. I completely believe the Theory of Evolution to be true, because, as you say, it can indeed be measured & observed. I know the expansion rate of the universe can be measured & if a sphere is expanding in every possible direction it can, at a constant rate, as has been proved, then it stands to reason that the expansion must have started at a singular point. My opinion of Creationism Theory is that it is inherently flawed because it based on a book that has absolutely no actual proveability.

My point was that the inflamed opinions that I see so frequently are from peple who believe that both of these theories are absolute truths, and that maybe folks ought to think about things with a clear & logical mind before screaming at each other that they MUST be right (Because the Bible or Theoretical Science says so)

I highlighted the word 'Theoretical' simply to illustrate the point that whilst Evolution & the Birth of the Universe are both proveable, neither can be experimentally repeated, which in the scientific community is the definition of Science Fact. It can only ever, honestly, be considered Theory because of that one simple reason.

You are standing on the proof, look at the earth, man has never created anything with out using something God created first!

Just look at man's D&A,

The Miracle of Creation in DNA - Harun Yahya

DNA

THE DATA SOURCE OF LIFE

The progress of science makes it clear that living beings have an extremely complex structure and an order too perfect to have come into being by coincidence. This is evidence to the fact that living beings are created by an All-Powerful Creator with superior knowledge. Recently, for instance, with the unravelling of the perfect structure in the human gene-which became a prominent issue due to the Genome Project-the unique creation of God has once more been revealed for all to see.

From the U.S.A. to China, scientists from all over the world have given their best efforts over a decade to decode the 3 billion chemical letters in DNA and to determine their sequence. As a result, 85% of the data included in the DNA of human beings could be properly sequenced. Although this is a very exciting and important development, as Dr. Francis Collins, who leads the Human Genome Project states, so far, only the first step has been taken in the decoding of the information in DNA.

In order to understand why the decoding of this information takes so long, we have to understand the nature of the information stored in DNA.

The Secret Structure of DNA

There is enough information in one DNA molecule to fill 1000 books. This is encoded in the DNA seen in the picture. All of a person's features are encoded in an alphabet symbolised in the letters A,T,C and G.

In the manufacture of a technological product or the management of a plant, the greatest tools employed are the experience and accumulation of knowledge that man has acquired over many centuries. The necessary knowledge and experience needed for the construction of the human body, the most advanced and sophisticated "plant" on earth, are stored in DNA. DNA is a rather large molecule that is carefully protected in the cell nucleus, and functions as a kind of data bank for the human body. The information hidden inside DNA controls the thousands of different events that take place in the cells of the human body and in the functioning of its systems, as well as all physical features, from the colour of a person's hair and eyes to his height. For example, even whether someone's blood pressure is high, low or normal depends on the information in DNA.

The important point that needs to be stressed here is that ever since the very first human being, the trillions of examples of DNA in the billions of human cells have been appearing in the same state of perfection and complexity as at present. As you read the lines below, you will also come to see how it is clearly unreasonable to claim, as evolutionists do, that such a molecule, with all its mind-blowing structure and properties, originated as a result of coincidences.

Some maybe related to monkeys, I was created by GOD

Edited September 2, 2010 by trigem

[Handsome Rob]

Oh dear. You'd done so well with your previous post.

One more time and this is just for trigem; Just because Science can't yet fully explain someting, doesn't automatically indicate the presence of a God's hand in it's creation.

[Guest dotsun]

This is the General Off Topic section of TGO. I take General Off Topic to mean it does not have to be about guns.

How is this thread any worse or less deserving than any other topic in this sub forum?

Do you also infer that tread wear, cub scouts, beer, Salma Hayek and everything else have no place here?

I don't know about all the other stuff, but beer and Selma Hayek are fitting in most every thread imaginable anywhere.

[Guest trigem]

Oh dear. You'd done so well with your previous post.

One more time and this is just for trigem; Just because Science can't yet fully explain someting, doesn't automatically indicate the presence of a God's hand in it's creation.

I think it takes more faith to believe that one was formed from a explosion, No proof anything every was, just look at the big bang in Japan, or that a piece of dirt spun till it created everything

[Desert Rat]

I believe in God and I believe in creation. God was created by man to justify man's existence. All things that can not at this time be explained can easily be explained by claiming it is part of God's plan even if it is only ramdon selection or evolving to adapt to the current environmental conditions throughout time.

[Guest trigem]

Yeah, but only by a couple of days, if the bible is to be believed. It takes thousands of years for fossilization to occur. According to the bible, the world isn't old enough for fossils to have formed.

FOSSIL YEARS: TENS, THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS?—Does fossilization really take millions of years?

The fact that something is fossilized does not mean that it is millions of years old. In fact, scientists know that fossilization can take place rather rapidly under the right conditions; quick burial, the right amounts of water, and suitable minerals.

Conditions for fossilization were ideal during the Flood. Researchers have discovered that bones, wood and other objects can fossilize in relatively short periods of time (e.g., 5 to100 years), if the conditions are right. Fossilization does not take millions, or even thousands, of years.

I can show you fossils are here in TN, In a riverbed you can see the layers that cover them, they are shallow, plants that are easy to find

[Garufa]

But it does take a considerable amount of time for the rocks to form around many fossilized bones.

[gregintenn]

Daniel, Are you just trying to bait people so you can discipline them? Your a real big man, Daniel.

[Guest EB31]

Daniel, Are you just trying to bait people so you can discipline them? Your a real big man, Daniel.

The answer to that would be yes.

[Guest m&pc9]

If there is a God:

Why does he let priest molest young boys?