God did not create the universe, says Hawking

[G27]

This is supposed to be a frickin Gun forum

Physician, heal thyself!

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[Mike.357]

Physician, heal thyself!

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don't you know that is different. Off topic is fine as long as it is not a scientific topic that some see as besmirching religion.

[Guest jackdm3]

Physician, heal thyself!

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Ohhhhh snappy SNAP!!!

[mikegideon]

Just bfore this blows up beyond all comprehension (again) I'd just like to point out that Stephen Hawking is a THEORETICAL physicist. He devises possible THEORIES based on what little evidence is available to him. He neither poses nor presents his theories as fact.

Can all the creationists please remeber this. He never (& to the best of my knowledge, no other Theoretical Physicist has either) claims any of his ideas to be impirical truths.

The argument of creation vs. Big Bang/evolution will never be more than an argument between to theroetical possibilities. One based on Scientific principals that cannot be proven, the other based on a book that could easily be a work of fiction.

Einstein was a theoretical physicist too. That doesn't mean that they're just making up like a talk show host. Dinosaurs existed. We found the bones. The universe is expanding, and can be measured using the doppler effect. Evolution has been OBSERVED in nature.

I haven't spent a lot of time trying to resolve any of it, but to totally discount science is equivalent to saying your computer doesn't exist. That technology started as theory too.

[mikegideon]

Physician, heal thyself!

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How come there's no Kentucky whiskey on this list? I'm pissed now.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I guess it kinda blows some people's minds to find out there are folks like myself who think that both science and God can coexist...

That's where I stand, also.

Besides, I applaud Daniel for this(still crazy:D). Hawking has been wrong before, but like others

said, he is a theoretical physicist. He comes up with a bunch of interesting stuff.

Time might also have been a different concept in the Bible.

[Guest jackdm3]

How come there's no Kentucky whiskey on this list? I'm pissed now.

Ask Willis. It's his list of threads.

[Guest RevScottie]

Einstein was a theoretical physicist too. That doesn't mean that they're just making up like a talk show host. Dinosaurs existed. We found the bones. The universe is expanding, and can be measured using the doppler effect. Evolution has been OBSERVED in nature.

I'm OK as long as you don't start claiming that moon landing stuff was real

[mikegideon]

Time might also have been a different concept in the Bible.

Sure, and I'm not the one to figure it out. What I mean is the discrepancy between between the Earth's bilogical development, which is backed by hard evidence, and the way it's laid out in the Bible. It's supposed to be explained in Intelligent Design THEORY, but that makes my brain hurt. Too many holes.

[mikegideon]

I'm OK as long as you don't start claiming that moon landing stuff was real

Right! It was all CGI

[Il Duce]

Mike to each their own, but when people treat religion like an off the wall Beer topic in the world that I live in there is a major difference Have fun with your childish games

WAIT A MINUTE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Sure, and I'm not the one to figure it out. What I mean is the discrepancy between between the Earth's bilogical development, which is backed by hard evidence, and the way it's laid out in the Bible. It's supposed to be explained in Intelligent Design THEORY, but that makes my brain hurt. Too many holes.

That's a debate I doubt anyone could win. It makes it interesting for all, I would assume.

Just to put my thoughts into perspective, Ayn Rand considered herself an atheist, and

argued that man's mind, existence, and reason superceded what she called "mysticism".

I'm still a Christian, and I can agree with most everything she wrote. She didn't hate

religion. She just argued for the other.

Robert A. Heinlein used God in a way that made us all part of God. I really liked his

approach. He treated God with a higher understanding

than I couldn't "grok" completely, but it really made me think about my faith. His logic was

consistent with Ms. Rand, even though she argued otherwise, in my mind.

Of course I could be confused about all of it, like everyone else on the planet.

Somehow, I can't take reason, logic, and existence without God being a part of it.

Complicated, huh? Some things do take a leap of faith. Nothing wrong with that.

[mikegideon]

That's a debate I doubt anyone could win. It makes it interesting for all, I would assume.

Just to put my thoughts into perspective, Ayn Rand considered herself an atheist, and

argued that man's mind, existence, and reason superceded what she called "mysticism".

I'm still a Christian, and I can agree with most everything she wrote. She didn't hate

religion. She just argued for the other.

Robert A. Heinlein used God in a way that made us all part of God. I really liked his

approach. He treated God with a higher understanding

than I couldn't "grok" completely, but it really made me think about my faith. His logic was

consistent with Ms. Rand, even though she argued otherwise, in my mind.

Of course I could be confused about all of it, like everyone else on the planet.

Somehow, I can't take reason, logic, and existence without God being a part of it.

Complicated, huh? Some things do take a leap of faith. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with a leap of faith, if it's not contrary to hard evidence. The expansion of the Universe is a fact. The Big Bang is a theory that tries to explain the existence of that fact. Religion helps us deal with the fact that we're all going to die. It's also an excellent control mechanism.

[Guest KimberChick]

I guess it kinda blows some people's minds to find out there are folks like myself who think that both science and God can coexist...

We're all special...and fall at 9.8m/s^2

One side says I'm naive, the other says I'm not a true believer. I hope that when I have children, I don't have to homeschool them just so they will be exposed to both science and God without zealous activism clouding either.

Ahhh! I'm too late! Oh well. I never argue about my faith anyway. It's mine and no one can take it from me. That and my cookiedough ice cream. Paws off my faith and ice cream.

Congrats, you have given me a new sig line.

[Guest jackdm3]

*God creates Man

*Man writes Bible

*Bible tells of Earth's relatively young age.

*Man discovers Carbon Dating, much to the consternation of the old testament types that say it's probably a horribly inaccurate tool devised by Atheistic heathens and have no place being used by Christian scientists

*David creates TGO (The absolute reiging champion of all gun forums.)

*TGO gets into a regular course of in-fighting, not only between the God vs. No God types, but between the Off-Topic vs. Absolutely-never-to-be-discussed-because-while-I-firmly-believe-what-I believe-and-the-topic-of-God/no God-shall-be-discussed-everywhere-in-the-world-but-sure-as-there-is-a-Hell-it-better-not-be-discussed-here-so-someone-may-challenge-my-faith-Off-Off-Topic!

Edited September 2, 2010 by jackdm3

[Handsome Rob]

Einstein was a theoretical physicist too. That doesn't mean that they're just making up like a talk show host. Dinosaurs existed. We found the bones. The universe is expanding, and can be measured using the doppler effect. Evolution has been OBSERVED in nature.

I haven't spent a lot of time trying to resolve any of it, but to totally discount science is equivalent to saying your computer doesn't exist. That technology started as theory too.

I'm not trying to discount Science in any way, shape or form. I completely believe the Theory of Evolution to be true, because, as you say, it can indeed be measured & observed. I know the expansion rate of the universe can be measured & if a sphere is expanding in every possible direction it can, at a constant rate, as has been proved, then it stands to reason that the expansion must have started at a singular point. My opinion of Creationism Theory is that it is inherently flawed because it based on a book that has absolutely no actual proveability.

My point was that the inflamed opinions that I see so frequently are from peple who believe that both of these theories are absolute truths, and that maybe folks ought to think about things with a clear & logical mind before screaming at each other that they MUST be right (Because the Bible or Theoretical Science says so)

I highlighted the word 'Theoretical' simply to illustrate the point that whilst Evolution & the Birth of the Universe are both proveable, neither can be experimentally repeated, which in the scientific community is the definition of Science Fact. It can only ever, honestly, be considered Theory because of that one simple reason.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

*God creates Man

*Man writes Bible

*Bible tells of Earth's relatively young age.

*Man discovers Carbon Dating, much to the consternation of the old testament types that say it's probably a horribly inaccurate tool devised by Atheistic heathens and have no place being used by Christian scientists

*David creates TGO (The absolute reiging champion of all gun forums.)

*TGO gets into a regular course of in-fighting, not only between the God vs. No God types, but between the Off-Topic vs. Absolutely-never-to-be-discussed-because-while-I-firmly-believe-what-I believe-and-the-topic-of-God/no God-shall-be-discussed-everywhere-in-the-world-but-sure-as-there-is-a-Hell-it-better-not-be-discussed-here-so-someone-may-challenge-my-faith-Off-Off-Topic!

Who is fighting? This appears to be a thread with a little class, for a change.

[Guest jackdm3]

So far, yes!

[Handsome Rob]

So far, yes!

Give it chance to warm up chief........

[Guest jackdm3]

Reminds me.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Wait a minute, Rev. A theorem has to be proved or disproved before you can make that argument.

Scientific fact, the way you describe it, tends to change, so it isn't really scientific fact, until then.

Global Warming is considered to be Scientific Fact, by some and hogwash by others. The debate ain't

over, unlike what Al Gore said. Hawking, like I said earlier, made some profound statements that

were considered fact, but later he admitted, himself, that the facts were wrong, which is why I like

his honesty.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

What's the point, Jack?

[mikegideon]

I'm not trying to discount Science in any way, shape or form. I completely believe the Theory of Evolution to be true, because, as you say, it can indeed be measured & observed. I know the expansion rate of the universe can be measured & if a sphere is expanding in every possible direction it can, at a constant rate, as has been proved, then it stands to reason that the expansion must have started at a singular point. My opinion of Creationism Theory is that it is inherently flawed because it based on a book that has absolutely no actual proveability.

My point was that the inflamed opinions that I see so frequently are from peple who believe that both of these theories are absolute truths, and that maybe folks ought to think about things with a clear & logical mind before screaming at each other that they MUST be right (Because the Bible or Theoretical Science says so)

I highlighted the word 'Theoretical' simply to illustrate the point that whilst Evolution & the Birth of the Universe are both proveable, neither can be experimentally repeated, which in the scientific community is the definition of Science Fact. It can only ever, honestly, be considered Theory because of that one simple reason.

I personally view some scientific evidence as fact, even though they can't do a rigorous proof in a lab. I've always believed the Big Bang theory was reaching a little deep, and wouldn't be surprised if it got revised with new evidence. I'm open to any explanation as long as it doesn't ignore reasonable conclusions that are based on strong evidence.

[G27]

We're all special...and fall at 9.8m/s^2

One side says I'm naive, the other says I'm not a true believer. I hope that when I have children, I don't have to homeschool them just so they will be exposed to both science and God without zealous activism clouding either.

Yah, good luck - we're home schooling for that very reason - the public schools only teach one thing, the private only another...

[E4 No More]

I guess it kinda blows some people's minds to find out there are folks like myself who think that both science and God can coexist...

Actually, I think God is the epitome of a scientist.