BATFE still out of control

[molonlabetn]

The problem with ideology and this discussion is you can't make baselines for an argument without accepting a common base. One view is coming from an absolute of right and wrong. The other is coming from a question of how do we enforce right and wrong properly in a socety. The Holocaust was an example of right and wrong. Weaver was the other.

The Jews were exterminated because they were "right". The Nazi's were "wrong". The Jews did nothing to morally, legally, or otherwise instigate their situation. It was completely and whole heartedly perpetrated on them by the Nazi's.

The problem with Weaver was that the "crimes" committed against him were instigated by him. Had he never broken the law and then failed to use our publicly accepted procedure for defending and rectifying himself, the said scenario would have never happened. Now did the Feds cross the line, absolutley. However the two comparisons are two separate issues.

One is right and wrong the other is a debate on what is acceptable in our society to govern right and wrong. The Gov't was "right" in it's addressing of the issue but wrong in it's final application. The Nazi's were wrong all the way through. Just another .02

Good points.

but, the error is that you assume that the laws which were being enforced against the Weavers and Davidians were 'right'. As I've said before, the Nazis thought that they were 'right', and executing lawful orders.

In both scenarios, it was 2 groups pitted against one another, both believing that they were right. Only in hindsight can we judge who truly was.

Do you think that Mrs. Weaver should have died because of a shotgun barrel that was less than 18" in length?

[The Rabbi]

<groan>....groan.......

No no no.

An ideology is not a "collection of ideas." A library is a collection of ideas. Bartlett's Familiar Quotations is a collection of ideas. THis board is a collection of ideas, some of them even good. Not one rises to the level of ideology.

I dont know how many crimes are committed by adherents to the "thug" culture and how many are committed by rural white people who probably despise it in many cases. It is irrelevant.

As for oversight, I think Waco got direct orders from Janet Reno, the AG at the time. Whether her call was correct or not is largely irrelevant. It was oversight. Similarly with Ruby Ridge. Lon Horiuchi did not just set up and start shooting. There was communication between and among agents on the ground and those in command positions.</groan>

[The Rabbi]

Good points.

but, the error is that you assume that the laws which were being enforced against the Weavers and Davidians were 'right'. As I've said before, the Nazis thought that they were 'right', and executing lawful orders.

In both scenarios, it was 2 groups pitted against one another, both believing that they were right. Only in hindsight can we judge who truly was.

Do you think that Mrs. Weaver should have died because of a shotgun barrel that was less than 18" in length?

Oy. More moral relativism.

Every criminal thinks he is right. The actor's judgement is largely irrelevant to the moral rightness of the situation.

In the case of the Nazis, the orders were given by a dictator who had suborned the existing constitution and hunted down and killed his political enemies.

In the case of Ruby Ridge gov't agents were acting pursuant to Federal laws that had been passed by democratically elected legislatures and validated by legitimately appointed judges.

As for Mrs Weaver, she should have died because she hitched herself to a white supremacist with a bizarre ideology. That isnt a legal judgement of course.

She was killed as an accident, which happens when situations get dicey when the primary actors refuse to cooperate with law enforcement.

[molonlabetn]

<groan>....groan.......

No no no.

An ideology is not a "collection of ideas." A library is a collection of ideas. Bartlett's Familiar Quotations is a collection of ideas. THis board is a collection of ideas, some of them even good. Not one rises to the level of ideology.

I dont know how many crimes are committed by adherents to the "thug" culture and how many are committed by rural white people who probably despise it in many cases. It is irrelevant.

As for oversight, I think Waco got direct orders from Janet Reno, the AG at the time. Whether her call was correct or not is largely irrelevant. It was oversight. Similarly with Ruby Ridge. Lon Horiuchi did not just set up and start shooting. There was communication between and among agents on the ground and those in command positions.</groan>

Go look up the definition of 'ideology' I didn't quote the dictionary, obviously, but 'collection of ideas' is just a simpler form of 'body of concepts' or 'science of ideas'.

So, Mr. Horiuchi was given the okay to consider Mrs. Weaver holding an infant to be a target?

Again, these situations started off as an attempt to enforce flawed laws... and escalated into massacres due to over-zealous agencies. How is that not the case?

[molonlabetn]

Oy. More moral relativism.

Every criminal thinks he is right...

Really? I have no direct experience, but every biography and account I've read has been pretty clear that most knew that they were horrible human beings, some even proud of it.

[The Rabbi]

So, Mr. Horiuchi was given the okay to consider Mrs. Weaver holding an infant to be a target?

Bush lied, people died.

[ioerror001]

I would like to chime in on this one, as I have become an avid ar fan and also an avid 2nd ammendment rights advocate. The batf has made it clear through ads (look at any bushmaster catalog) and through other cases, that if you have 1 M16 part in your ar15 you can be charged with constructive intent to make a machine gun even if the gun is incapable of firing a single round. That being said a 3 position selector is a m16 only part, a ar15 only has 2 positions and will not goto the 3rd position. So that in and of itself makes him convictable. Possibly not for transferring a machine gun, because unless he has an autosear or a factory sear with the lower drilled a ar platform cannot be made to fire but once, and possibly have the hammer ride the bolt creating a very unsafe situation but not a machine gun. Just my .02, guy could also be charged for dealing guns without a licsence. I personally think he should take a plea deal on transferring a machine gun and call it quits. TI (rapper) is only getting 1 yr in jail and 1500 hours community service for buying 3 machine guns and 5 silencers and he's a felon buying from an ATF agent, so I think this guy should plead on this get some probation and be happy he's not getting the whole 10 years and 250k fine.

[towerclimber37]

Oy. More moral relativism.

Every criminal thinks he is right. The actor's judgement is largely irrelevant to the moral rightness of the situation.

In the case of the Nazis, the orders were given by a dictator who had suborned the existing constitution and hunted down and killed his political enemies.

In the case of Ruby Ridge gov't agents were acting pursuant to Federal laws that had been passed by democratically elected legislatures and validated by legitimately appointed judges.

As for Mrs Weaver, she should have died because she hitched herself to a white supremacist with a bizarre ideology. That isnt a legal judgement of course.

She was killed as an accident, which happens when situations get dicey when the primary actors refuse to cooperate with law enforcement.

So you believe that because this woman loved a guy that you find distasteful, she should have been killed?

As far as I know, Randy Weaver didn't have any white supremacist leanings. He only wanted to be left alone. He was out of the Army and didn't want to work for the BATF who wanted to use him to get close to white supremacists. As a result they did the sting in order to force him...when he didn't give in, they went after him.

For that, a woman was shot and killed while holding her baby. for that a 12 year old boy was shot IN THE BACK.

and you advocate that.

wow..just...wow.

[Marswolf]

As far as I know, Randy Weaver didn't have any white supremacist leanings. He only wanted to be left alone. He was out of the Army and didn't want to work for the BATF who wanted to use him to get close to white supremacists. As a result they did the sting in order to force him...when he didn't give in, they went after him.

As I've said, I'm not a big Randy Weaver fan, but I suspect this is exactly what happened. The ATF wanted to use him as a snitch and when he wouldn't do it they set him up. Unlike most folks though, he didn't give in. That does say something about his integrity.

[Guest TN.Frank]

Problem with these issues is you've got agency's trying to enforce bad laws. The BATF is out of control because the laws are retarded and leave way to much vaguery for interpretation. Get the wrong guys in charge and interpretation will have bad outcomes.

Waco was a Reno classic, much like many other examples of her fine work. The Weaver deal was an FBI/local sheriff department (lying) debacle with exceptionally bad leadership.

The holocaust was neither of these and I gotta go with Rabbi on this one. That was just evil, hate, injustice, ..........to the nth degree.

+100

Our government is out of control and no longers is a government "of the people, by the people, for the people" they're only interested in looking out for themselves and keeping their high paying jobs, where we, the tax payers foot the bill.

No one wants to stand up and use out 2nd Amend. Rights to kick this corrupt government to the curb so we get what we pretty much deserve until we get a back bone and stop letting ourselves be pushed around.

Edited April 18, 2008 by TN.Frank

[The Rabbi]

+100

Our government is out of control and no longers is a government "of the people, by the people, for the people" they're only interested in looking out for themselves and keeping their high paying jobs, where we, the tax payers foot the bill.

No one wants to stand up and use out 2nd Amend. Rights to kick this corrupt government to the curb so we get what we pretty much deserve until we get a back bone and stop letting ourselves be pushed around.

[Guest jackdog]

Update:

It turns out that the manufacturer of this particular weaponhad sent a letter out telling people that this weapon was capable of going into full auto burst. The BATF and the US attorneys office were both aware of the letter. They kept said letter out of court saying that it contained private tax information of the manufacture. It turns out that the tax info was bull****, and that the letter issued long before the incident would have probably kept this poor guy out of court. Guys if the federal government can at will screww 2 us border agents and then an honest citizen then the rule of law in this country is BULLS&^T.

[Marswolf]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68590

Owner of broken rifle surrenders for 30-month sentence

'The conviction of David Olofson is a gross miscarriage of justice'

Posted: July 02, 2008

11:30 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily

A Wisconsin man today surrendered to federal authorities to begin serving a 30-month prison term for having a broken rifle, prompting the Gun Owners of America to issue a warning about the owner's liability should any semi-automatic weapon ever misfire.

"A gun that malfunctions is not a machine gun," Larry Pratt, executive director of GOA, said. "What the [federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives] has done in the [David] Olofson case has set a precedent that could make any of the millions of Americans that own semi-automatic firearms suddenly the owner [of] an unregistered machine gun at the moment the gun malfunctions."

Officials with Gun Owners of America told WND they met with Olofson today before he surrendered to federal authorities for his prison term. U.S. District Judge Charles Clevert had imposed the sentence after the gun in question let loose three shots at a firing range.

"It didn't matter the rifle in question had not been intentionally modified for select fire, or that it did not have an M16 bolt carrier … that it did not show any signs of machining or drilling, or that that model had even been recalled a few years back," said a commentary in Guns Magazine on the case against Olofson, of Berlin, Wis.

"It didn't matter the government had repeatedly failed to replicate automatic fire until they replaced the ammunition with a softer primer type. It didn't even matter that the prosecution admitted it was not important to prove the gun would do it again if the test were conducted today," the magazine said. "What mattered was the government's position that none of the above was relevant because '[T]here's no indication it makes any difference under the statute. If you pull the trigger once and it fires more than one round, no matter what the cause it's a machine gun.'

"No matter what the cause."

"David Olofson is a victim of BATFE abuse," Pratt said. "He has been railroaded by an agency that is out-of-control."

An appeal is being assembled by a legal team at the William J. Olson, P.C., law firm, supplemented by attorney Bob Sanders, whose career stretches from being assistant director of criminal investigations at BATFE to many years in private trial law, officials said.

Constitutional expert Herb Titus also is counsel to the Olson law firm.

WND reported earlier when Olofson, a drill instructor in the National Guard, was convicted in a federal court for illegally transferring a machine gun.

The verdict came in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin.

An expert witness said then the decision was filled with problems.

"If your semiautomatic rifle breaks or malfunctions you are now subject to prosecution. That is now a sad FACT," wrote Len Savage, a weaponry expert who runs Historic Arms LLC.

"To those in the sporting culture who have derided 'black guns' and so-called 'assault weapons'; Your double barreled shotgun is now next up to be seized and you could possibly be prosecuted if the ATF can get it to 'fire more than once,'" he wrote in a blog run by Red's Trading Post.

"Hey, but don't worry," Savage said. "The people testing it have no procedures in writing and the testing will be in secret."

He said during an interview with Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership that Olofson had been instructing a man in the use of guns, and the student asked to borrow a rifle for some shooting practice.

"Mr. Olofson was nice enough to accommodate him," Savage said. So the student, Robert Kiernicki, went to a range and fired about 120 rounds. "He went to put in another magazine and the rifle shot three times, then jammed."

He said the rifle, which was subject to a manufacturer's recall because of mechanical problems at one point, malfunctioned because of the way it was made.

Savage said once the government confiscated the gun, things got worse.

"They examined and test fired the rifle; then declared it to be 'just a rifle,'" Savage said. "You would think it would all be resolved at this point, this was merely the beginning."

He said the Special Agent in Charge, Jody Keeku, asked for a re-test and specified that the tests use "soft primered commercial ammunition."

"FTB has no standardized testing procedures, in fact it has no written procedures at all for testing firearms," Savage said. "They had no standard to stick to, and gleefully tried again. The results this time...'a machinegun.' ATF with a self-admitted 50 percent error rate pursued an indictment and Mr. Olofson was charged with 'Unlawful transfer of a machinegun.'. Not possession, not even Robert Kiernicki was charged with possession (who actually possessed the rifle), though the ATF paid Mr. Kiernicki 'an undisclosed amount of money' to testify against Mr. Olofson at trial," Savage said.

[Guest tngunman]

Oy. More moral relativism.

Every criminal thinks he is right. The actor's judgement is largely irrelevant to the moral rightness of the situation.

In the case of the Nazis, the orders were given by a dictator who had suborned the existing constitution and hunted down and killed his political enemies.

In the case of Ruby Ridge gov't agents were acting pursuant to Federal laws that had been passed by democratically elected legislatures and validated by legitimately appointed judges.

As for Mrs Weaver, she should have died because she hitched herself to a white supremacist with a bizarre ideology. That isnt a legal judgement of course.

She was killed as an accident, which happens when situations get dicey when the primary actors refuse to cooperate with law enforcement.

Just what was Randy Weaver charged with again?

Oh wait, I have it right here

Randy Weaver, a "former Iowa factory worker", had moved to north Idaho in the 1980s to "home-school his children and escape what he and his wife Vicki saw as a corrupted world".<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-suprynowicz_0-0>[1]</SUP>

In October 1989, an informant from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms visited Weaver and requested that he supply him two shotguns, with the barrels shortened beyond the legal limit (for short-barreled shotguns without a tax paid to the BATF). Weaver sold him two shotguns which agents claimed had barrels shortened beyond legal limit. Weaver vehemently denied this, claiming agents purchased legal shotguns from Weaver, and later shortened the barrels themselves. In June 1990, BATF agents attempted to have Weaver act as an informant for their investigation into the Aryan Nations organization. He refused. Seven months later in January 1991, they laid charges over the illegally shortened shotguns.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-OPRreportBeginning_1-0>[2]</SUP>

BATF agents posed as broken-down motorists and arrested Randy and Vicki Weaver when they stopped to assist. Randy Weaver was told of the charges against him, released on bail, and told his trial would begin on 19 February 1991. Two weeks later, the trial date changed to 20 February, but the U.S. Probation Office sent out a letter which stated the date as 20 March. Weaver did not appear on the correct trial date, and the judge issued a warrant for his arrest. On 14 March a grand jury, which the U.S. Attorney's Office (USAO) had not informed of the incorrect date in the letter, indicted Weaver for failing to appear on the correct trial date.

I cannot believe you believe that killing her was OK.

How did it all end?

The surviving members of the Weaver family filed a wrongful death suit and Randy Weaver received a $100,000 settlement while his daughters received $1 million each. Weaver wrote a 1998 paperback book, The Federal Siege at Ruby Ridge, about the incident. Kevin Harris received a $380,000 settlement.

Where's your shop again, I'm steering clear.

[Smith]

double. Sorry.

Edited July 5, 2008 by Smith

[Smith]

Just what was Randy Weaver charged with again?

Oh wait, I have it right here

I cannot believe you believe that killing her was OK.

How did it all end?

Where's your shop again, I'm steering clear.

Why would you revive this? Did you read the whole argument?

[Guest tngunman]

Why would you revive this? Did you read the whole argument?

Why yes I did. Rabbi clearly condoned her murder.

Edited July 5, 2008 by tngunman

[G27]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=68590

Owner of broken rifle surrenders for 30-month sentence

I'd be lying if I said I followed this super-closely, but there are quite a few things about this story that don't add up (from both sides). Olufson may not have crossed the line, but in his own words he admitted (on another forum where we conversed about this) that BATFE found documentation regarding modifying his weapon for fully-automatic capability as well as a 'few M16 parts' in his house.

Still not sure how he gets arrested for it when it was loaned out to someone else.

I think both sides screwed up royally on this one and hope he gets out for a retrial soon enough, but I'm certainly not ready to assume he is innocent.

[Marswolf]

Yeah, there are a lot of unanswered questions.

[Smith]

It's just plain weird. Kinda like there is something there that nobody wants to say. No conspiracies, just something off. Then again with the logic this agency uses maybe that is the genius of crazy.

[Marswolf]

It looks like ATF is pretty sure that Olofson did some stuff to try and turn the rifle into a full auto. Looking back on http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=52960&postcount=3 the rifle had a selector switch that would go into a third position and a bolt that had been filed down. The guy who the rifle was loaned to was having Olofson build an AR for him and told Olofson that he didn't want the extra "Pin" in his that gave it a burst mode. Additionally, Olofson had told the guy that the third position would fire in burst mode, but not to use it.

Under the law, the prosecution only had to show that he had a rifle that would fire more than once with one trigger pull and apparently a jury agreed with them. I suspect the testimony of the shooter as to his conversations with Olofson and the evidence of attempted modification of the rifle was all they needed. The Olympic Arms letter is a red herring. There was evidence of modification, even if it wasn't competently done.

I just don't buy this idea that BATFE is out to get anyone whose rifle obviously breaks and lets it fire more than one round. It's yet another Larry Pratt sideshow. Note that the NRA is apparently not supporting Olofson in this. This rifle appears to have been purposely modified. I suspect there is a lot to the story that we don't know and I'd bet a year's pay that it supports the decision of ATF to go after Olofson.

[G27]

I just don't buy this idea that BATFE is out to get anyone whose rifle obviously breaks and lets it fire more than one round. It's yet another Larry Pratt sideshow. Note that the NRA is apparently not supporting Olofson in this. This rifle appears to have been purposely modified. I suspect there is a lot to the story that we don't know and I'd bet a year's pay that it supports the decision of ATF to go after Olofson.

These are the main sticking points to me as well. And while I agree there seems to be an elephant in the room no one wants to talk about, the reality is that if (big,massive, huge 'if') he did nothing at all and it was purely a malfunction of the weapon, we don't want to come down on him as we have a hard enough time keeping our rights as the laws currently are.

I suspect he's not being completely forthcoming with everyone and hoping to play the victim card. The BATFE nor the courts were fooled, and he turned himself in this past Wednesday.

Just in case anyone thinks it might be cool to modify your weapons thinking "no one will know", just take a look at this:

How chilling is that?

[Guest tngunman]

Bolt filed down? That works almost as good as filing the firing pin

If he was truly using someone else's FFL they should have charged him with that.

Edited July 6, 2008 by tngunman

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

Bolt filed down? That works almost as good as filing the firing pin

If he was truly using someone else's FFL they should have charged him with that.

I'm with you, man, but we're fighting a losing battle. There are too many among us who willingly kneel before a corrupt political class that selectively enforces unjust laws. These same people are the ones who are ignorant of this man's AR, it's innards, and exactly what the government alleged in this case.

[Marswolf]

Guys, I just don't believe Olofson didn't purposely try to illegally modify the rifle. A third selector switch position doesn't just magically appear and allow the AR to mysteriously fire in burst mode. And the guy shooting the rifle clearly indicated that the burst option was something he didn't want in his rifle, telling me that it may have been offered. To me, it's pretty clear that Olofson just got caught because he foolishly loaned a modified AR to a customer.

I'm purely guessing, but I suspect his attitude had a lot to do with the prosecution going after him as they did.