BATFE still out of control

[Guest ordonnanzgewehr]

No problem with the fate of the Weavers? That's like saying you have no problem with fate of the jews during the holocaust. No wonder your head hurts.

[The Rabbi]

No problem with the fate of the Weavers? That's like saying you have no problem with fate of the jews during the holocaust. No wonder your head hurts.

If you think there is any point of comparison then your moral compass is seriously out of kilter.

That's all I'm saying on this topic.

[Guest ordonnanzgewehr]

Ditto

[strickj]

And why bring up Waco?They were a compound full of nut jobs that had planed on the out come of what happened to them.

IMO,both of those have nothing to do with this topic.Lets compare some nut jobs with a drill instructor in the National Guard

[Smith]

Problem with these issues is you've got agency's trying to enforce bad laws. The BATF is out of control because the laws are retarded and leave way to much vaguery for interpretation. Get the wrong guys in charge and interpretation will have bad outcomes.

Waco was a Reno classic, much like many other examples of her fine work. The Weaver deal was an FBI/local sheriff department (lying) debacle with exceptionally bad leadership.

The holocaust was neither of these and I gotta go with Rabbi on this one. That was just evil, hate, injustice, ..........to the nth degree.

[Mike.357]

yep , Waco and holocaust are not the same thing, not even close.

[Marswolf]

Well....the common denominator is wacko's (not wackos)

Both situations were people of religious fervor, if not reason railing against the world.

Randy Weaver was regarded as an obvious attack point.

I'd go on , but you attack the point until you bring about the reality.

Edited March 26, 2008 by Marswolf

[KahrMan]

No problem with the fate of the Weavers? That's like saying you have no problem with fate of the jews during the holocaust. No wonder your head hurts.

I usually try to stay very civil on forums but you are a f***ing idiot if you really believe that.

Mods, if you feel I am out of line, please feel free to delete my post.

[Marswolf]

That may be a bit strong, but I've done the same a couple of times.

But it would be more helpful to explain why you come to the conclusion about Weaver and the Holocaust.

I'm not a fan of Randy Weaver, but think the situation was badly handled by the government. Same with Waco.

[Guest ordonnanzgewehr]

I’m glad to see everyone exercising their 1st amendment right to free speech. Exercise is not just good for the body but for our rights as well.

The 1st amendment is an important right of every citizen. It is not a right solely owned by the media, who likes to abuse this right in order to spin, yes even brainwash. I’m sad to observe that in some cases it does work. This is why it is so important to consider your sources.

We all know that the 1st amendment is possible, not in a small part, because of the 2nd amendment. Our collective support of the 2nd amendment brings us here today, as well as our desire to exercise this right. Exercise is good.

Did you know that the 1<SUP>st</SUP> amendment also proclaims the right to free exercise of religion? Yes, you may freely exercise the religion of your choice. Exercise is good.

The Weavers wanted to exercise their religion. The media said they were bad. The Branch Dividians at Waco, although odd, desired to exercise their religion. The media said they were bad. The Jews desired to exercise their religion as well. The Nazis said they were bad.

I’m honestly not trying to “flame†here. I was not being sardonic when I commented that “I was glad†to see everyone exercising their 1<SUP>st</SUP> amendment rights, because I truly am glad. I apologize for causing this thread to go off on a rabbit track.

[Smith]

Again to equate them in anyway is comparing apples and horses. They have no parallel at all, except people died. The Branch Dividian and Weaver disasters were not about religion for the FBI and ATF, even though that was the media justification for some of it. However, the media spun that wrong just like the Nazi's spun the propaganda for the extermination of the Jews under Hitler saying it was because of economics, race, ect. It was because of the hedonistic desire to destroy God's people. Good vs. evil. It's like comparing the death from a drunk driver to the Holocaust.

Edited March 31, 2008 by Smith

[The Rabbi]

That's the most screwed up reasoning I have seen in a long time.

The Weavers did not get into trouble because of their religious beliefs. They got into trouble because they violated Federal law.

Ditto the Branch Davidians.

Now you can argue that the gov't was over-zealous or exhibited poor judgement in how they pursued these two cases. That's legitimate.

But comparing the fate of those two groups of nudniks to that of the Jews under the Nazis is simply misinformed at best.

[Marswolf]

The weird-ass religious beliefs of the Branch Davidians and Weavers are interesting, but not why the Feds went after them. They got into trouble because they violated Federal law, that we all have to follow if we aren't going to have the government come get us. Doesn't matter what our religion, or lack of it, is.

I do think Weaver was enticed to break the law, but his trouble had nothing to do with religion.

[Guest shadow12]

If I remember correctly, Weaver was eventually found guilty of, Failure To Appear, no firearms violations. He just didn't show up for court. If we handled all failures to appear like that, cops would'nt be able to do anything else. We would all be busy sitting outside someones house because he didn't pay his traffic ticket.

[The Rabbi]

The key words are "eventually found guilty of." What happens between the LE enforcement action and the final outcome is subject to all kinds of constraints.

[molonlabetn]

That's the most screwed up reasoning I have seen in a long time.

The Weavers did not get into trouble because of their religious beliefs. They got into trouble because they violated Federal law.

Ditto the Branch Davidians.

Now you can argue that the gov't was over-zealous or exhibited poor judgement in how they pursued these two cases. That's legitimate.

But comparing the fate of those two groups of nudniks to that of the Jews under the Nazis is simply misinformed at best.

The Nuremberg laws were the 'Federal Laws' of the land which the Nazi's were upholding through their inhuman methods... certainly to them were just as viable as the Federal laws which the Weavers and Davidians were slaughtered over.

[The Rabbi]

The Nuremberg laws were the 'Federal Laws' of the land which the Nazi's were upholding through their inhuman methods... certainly to them were just as viable as the Federal laws which the Weavers and Davidians were slaughtered over.

Another false comparison.

My wife's grandfather was a baker named Kaiser who was a Jew. His business was confiscated and he was thrown in laager and released at the last minute. If he had been a baker named Mueller who was a Lutheran he would have continued unmolested.

Weaver sold or conspired to sell an illegal weapon. Whether he was a White Supremacist or a Muslim or a member of the Church of Christ wouldn't have made the slightest difference.

Comparing the Nuremburg Laws to Federal Laws here is an atrocious absurdity.

[molonlabetn]

Another false comparison.

My wife's grandfather was a baker named Kaiser who was a Jew. His business was confiscated and he was thrown in laager and released at the last minute. If he had been a baker named Mueller who was a Lutheran he would have continued unmolested.

Weaver sold or conspired to sell an illegal weapon. Whether he was a White Supremacist or a Muslim or a member of the Church of Christ wouldn't have made the slightest difference.

Comparing the Nuremburg Laws to Federal Laws here is an atrocious absurdity.

I'm not saying they were based on similar principles, at all.. but the truth remains that they were both policies of the state.

[The Rabbi]

I'm not saying they were based on similar principles, at all.. but the truth remains that they were both policies of the state.

That's a statement without much significance. Every gov't sponsored atrocity is a policy of the state. Every gov't sponsored program that was of benefit is a policy of the state. That's like saying that both desegregation and pogroms were carried out largely by men wearing shirts. So what?

[molonlabetn]

That's a statement without much significance. Every gov't sponsored atrocity is a policy of the state. Every gov't sponsored program that was of benefit is a policy of the state. That's like saying that both desegregation and pogroms were carried out largely by men wearing shirts. So what?

The point was that both groups were wrongfully dealt-with brutally for being in violation of the laws of the land... not somehow different because one was about religion or armament.

[The Rabbi]

The point was that both groups were wrongfully dealt-with brutally for being in violation of the laws of the land... not somehow different because one was about religion or armament.

Well, no. That wont wash either.

The Weavers arguably were victims of over-zealous prosecution and/or misjudgments. It was an isolated incident.

The Jews of Germany were subject to consistent harassment both legally and socially as part of an organized campaign by the gov't. There was no isolated incident.

Try again.

[molonlabetn]

Well, no. That wont wash either.

The Weavers arguably were victims of over-zealous prosecution and/or misjudgments. It was an isolated incident.

The Jews of Germany were subject to consistent harassment both legally and socially as part of an organized campaign by the gov't. There was no isolated incident.

Try again.

There simply aren't as many Weaver/Davidian-esque folks here to have been killed as there were Jews/Gypsies/etc in Nazi Germany, but there was a clear pattern of treatment for those situations. Folks who wish to bear arms which the government deems inappropriate are certainly harassed legally and socially, on a regular basis!

I'm sure that Germans would consider their country's brief few years of ethnic and religious oppression to be an 'isolated incident', relatively. Certainly neither is justified by the laws, but they were certainly both carried out under them, with prejudice for the ideas of those involved.

Both are examples of grossly mis-applied laws by folks who have no regard for life... the comparative scale of the events are certainly different, but that's about it.

Edited March 31, 2008 by molonlabetn

[Smith]

Too the Sheriff's dept handled the deal badly lying about how many shots were fired, (FBI later validated Weaver) who shot first (again FBI validated), how much firepower was involved, on and on the list went. The FBI later validated most of the Weavers statements. The Sheriff's department heightened the force exponentially through lies in order to save face. The FBI assumed they were truthful and acted without validating first.

However, that is in no way a comparison to the Holocaust. Innocent people were rounded up, forced into settlements, later to be routinely and systematically exterminated (not to mention experimented with), and there was no violation of any law that triggered or instigated the process. There was no mistaken or bad info, it was simply genocide and was not even in the arena of war/conflict, where one side eliminates the other (again not justified, but explainable).

[The Rabbi]

There simply aren't as many Weaver/Davidian-esque folks here to have been killed as there were Jews/Gypsies/etc in Nazi Germany, but there was a clear pattern of treatment for those situations. Folks who wish to bear arms which the government deems inappropriate are certainly harassed legally and socially, on a regular basis!

I'm sure that Germans would consider their country's brief few years of ethnic and religious oppression to be an 'isolated incident', relatively. Certainly neither is justified by the laws, but they were certainly both carried out under them, with prejudice for the ideas of those involved.

Both are examples of grossly mis-applied laws by folks who have no regard for life... the comparative scale of the events are certainly different, but that's about it.

No, that simply won't do either.

To say "there weren't as many killed" is to mis-state the situation. There was exactly one situation like Ruby Ridge (namely Ruby Ridge) and exactly one situation like Waco (Waco). They were different in a variety of ways. They played out in one location over maybe weeks.

Germans do not consider the Holocaust an "isolated" incident in the same way. There were hundreds of thousands of like incidents, all over Germany, committed by many different governmental and non-governmental agencies and over a period of years. It was not an abuse or mis-application of law: it was precisely the fulfillment of the laws and their intended effects.

[molonlabetn]

It is no longer the policy of the German government to exile/exterminate 'non-aryan' residents, however it is still the policy of the FBI/BATFE/SWAT/etc to use paramilitary tactics and force to remove residents who do not align with the policies of this government... both are precisely the fulfillment of the applicable laws and their intended effects. The point is not that the BATFE's dealings are anywhere near as horrendous and inhumane as those of the Nazis, but they are both certainly a revocation of rights by force when opposed, prescribed in laws dictated by the society. The difference is that the policies of the BATFE have not yet been questioned and/or halted.

If another Weaver compound existed, or several of them, the response would be the same.